Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Collingwood's top 10 draft picks

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> General Discussion
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Piesnchess 



Joined: 09 Jun 2008


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:34 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
How many of Fraser’s 200 games were worthy of a number 1 pick? I’m with BIFC and RB on this one.


BIT ROUGH, Josh carried our Rucks for years, on his lonesome, mostly Surprised Shocked

_________________
Chess is the touchstone of the intellect-Goethe.

Some people see things and say why, I see things, and say, why not. ! - Robert Kennedy
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:23 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

masoncox wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
How many of Fraser’s 200 games were worthy of a number 1 pick? I’m with BIFC and RB on this one.

Frasier was fantastic in his earlier years. He went straight into the firsts with no vfl games.
It was injuries and using him as first ruck almost from the beginning that killed him. Go watch some of his games from early this century to see how good he was.

The question posed, as I understand it, by this thread is the value we got from players for the draft pick we used on them. Fraser was a solid player but I doubt that anyone seriously thought of him (sober) as a genuine star of the competition at any stage of the competition. Thomas was, at one stage (and only briefly, because he was cut down by injuries just after he reached his peak), genuinely considered by many to be the best player in the league. Pendelebury, Swan, Cloke were, likewise, the best - or very close to - in their position and in the handful of match-winning guns of the competition. Fraser was never much more than a role player who delivered much less than his skills and talent promised. Grundy is about 15 times the ruckman Fraser ever was but wasn’t even a top ten pick. Fraser played his most useful football as a third tall in our forward line. Even there, though, history tells us that he was about half as useful as Leigh Brown proved to be in the same role. I wouldn’t have Fraser in the top 25 Collingwood players so far this century and, judged against what we used to get him, we didn’t get the value we might have expected from a number 1 pick.

To try to put some flesh on the bones of that assertion, I would have, off the top of my head, all of the following players ahead of him (in no particular order) in the “value for pick” stakes:

Maxwell, O’Brien, Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Lockyer, Grundy, Tarrant, Toovey, Leigh Brown, Reid, Ball, Didak, Dawes, Sidebottom, Beams, Fasolo and both Davis’. If you start thinking about the other players we have recruited other than via the draft, it starts to become obvious just how little Fraser delivered, despite his obvious ability.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
masoncox 



Joined: 31 Aug 2015


PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:21 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
masoncox wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
How many of Fraser’s 200 games were worthy of a number 1 pick? I’m with BIFC and RB on this one.

Frasier was fantastic in his earlier years. He went straight into the firsts with no vfl games.
It was injuries and using him as first ruck almost from the beginning that killed him. Go watch some of his games from early this century to see how good he was.

The question posed, as I understand it, by this thread is the value we got from players for the draft pick we used on them. Fraser was a solid player but I doubt that anyone seriously thought of him (sober) as a genuine star of the competition at any stage of the competition. Thomas was, at one stage (and only briefly, because he was cut down by injuries just after he reached his peak), genuinely considered by many to be the best player in the league. Pendelebury, Swan, Cloke were, likewise, the best - or very close to - in their position and in the handful of match-winning guns of the competition. Fraser was never much more than a role player who delivered much less than his skills and talent promised. Grundy is about 15 times the ruckman Fraser ever was but wasn’t even a top ten pick. Fraser played his most useful football as a third tall in our forward line. Even there, though, history tells us that he was about half as useful as Leigh Brown proved to be in the same role. I wouldn’t have Fraser in the top 25 Collingwood players so far this century and, judged against what we used to get him, we didn’t get the value we might have expected from a number 1 pick.

To try to put some flesh on the bones of that assertion, I would have, off the top of my head, all of the following players ahead of him (in no particular order) in the “value for pick” stakes:

Maxwell, O’Brien, Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Lockyer, Grundy, Tarrant, Toovey, Leigh Brown, Reid, Ball, Didak, Dawes, Sidebottom, Beams, Fasolo and both Davis’. If you start thinking about the other players we have recruited other than via the draft, it starts to become obvious just how little Fraser delivered, despite his obvious ability.

Fraser was a freak. He was an amazing athlete and was something akin to Darcy Moore. Trouble was he was thrown into the main ruck role from day one. Imagine if this had happened to Moore. Fraser's body was wrecked by the club. Yes, we did not get the value out of him as one would expect. But I don't blame his talent, I blame the role that was given to him. There was also a question mark over his G and D.
some info from his first 3 years at the club that highlights how good he was considering he was so young for a big man to play such demanding roles.
[i]Fraser played 21 games in his first season. He won an AFL Rising Star nomination in his debut year. He played all 25 games in 2002, kicked 37 goals and played in the Grand Final team where he kicked three goals, following a three-goal haul in the Preliminary Final. In 2003 he had over 340 disposals in the season, 300 hit outs and kicked 20 goals.[/i
Darcy Moore enters his fourth year next year and he has been gently eased into the big time. Fraser was thrown into the wolf pit.


Last edited by masoncox on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:35 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:22 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

How much do you think Fraser delivered despite his obvious ability is? I think you already know the answer. Didn't I say I started already?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Geek 



Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Glenroy

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:09 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel a bit for Rogan. While he was developing, he had Bucks and SSB roving to him, which would have been quite useful. But he himself was just a developing beanpole.

Fraser improved over time but Buckley and Burns retired and it was O'Bree and Licuria at his feet. Useful but not brilliant.

Then came the interstate game where he was up against Dean Cox, ruckman of the generation. But Rogan's got Ablett, Boomer and Bartel at his feet and he takes the big West Australian to the cleaners... until he does his PCL. Never reaches his true peak.

He was never going to be the next Polly Farmer. Did the small guy things brilliantly - for a tall guy. Wasn't so good at the big man stuff. Ask Peter Bell.

Still... I was a lot calmer when he was lining up for goal than just about anybody on our current list.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:34 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Collingwood's best-value draft pick of all-time is plainly pick 39 - we've used it on two champions who delivered premierships:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Scott_Russell.html#19900

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsQ6FW_bXmA

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Travis_Cloke.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFnnxu8BXMI
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:50 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
Collingwood's best-value draft pick of all-time is plainly pick 39 - we've used it on two champions who delivered premierships:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Scott_Russell.html#19900

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsQ6FW_bXmA

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Travis_Cloke.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFnnxu8BXMI


Third time will be a charm!!!!

_________________
The above reflects the opinions of the author and should not be considered a direct attack against you. It just means that in my opinion, you are wrong!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:40 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
Collingwood's best-value draft pick of all-time is plainly pick 39 - we've used it on two champions who delivered premierships:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Scott_Russell.html#19900

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsQ6FW_bXmA

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Travis_Cloke.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFnnxu8BXMI


Pick 8 hasn't been bad.

tarrant and ben reid.

Pick 5 has given us Pendlebury and De goey,

_________________
I'd like to apologise to anyone I haven't offended yet. Be patient, I'm working through a list. You're entitled to your own opinion, but if it disagrees with mine, it's wrong.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

And pick 65 has been fabulous.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
magpieazza 



Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Griffith N.S.W

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:01 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh Fraser was on a wave of form where I could say he was worth his weight.

IIRC he was in a good patch of form and earned a big V jumper but unluckily did his knee when jumping at the centre bounce!! Im pretty sure it happened that way and he was never the same since.

That indeed was sad and Collingwood missed out on a real player because of the dreaded knee.

So looking back he didnt become the player we hoped for but not through being a bad pick up by the club or lack of talent....just bad luck

_________________
Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
neil Sagittarius



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Location: Queensland

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:01 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:


The question posed, as I understand it, by this thread is the value we got from players for the draft pick we used on them. Fraser was a solid player but I doubt that anyone seriously thought of him (sober) as a genuine star of the competition at any stage of the competition. Thomas was, at one stage (and only briefly, because he was cut down by injuries just after he reached his peak), genuinely considered by many to be the best player in the league. Pendelebury, Swan, Cloke were, likewise, the best - or very close to - in their position and in the handful of match-winning guns of the competition. Fraser was never much more than a role player who delivered much less than his skills and talent promised. Grundy is about 15 times the ruckman Fraser ever was but wasn’t even a top ten pick. Fraser played his most useful football as a third tall in our forward line. Even there, though, history tells us that he was about half as useful as Leigh Brown proved to be in the same role. I wouldn’t have Fraser in the top 25 Collingwood players so far this century and, judged against what we used to get him, we didn’t get the value we might have expected from a number 1 pick.

To try to put some flesh on the bones of that assertion, I would have, off the top of my head, all of the following players ahead of him (in no particular order) in the “value for pick” stakes:

Maxwell, O’Brien, Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Lockyer, Grundy, Tarrant, Toovey, Leigh Brown, Reid, Ball, Didak, Dawes, Sidebottom, Beams, Fasolo and both Davis’. If you start thinking about the other players we have recruited other than via the draft, it starts to become obvious just how little Fraser delivered, despite his obvious ability.
Seriously you have Lockyer Toovey Dawes Fasolo and the other Davis ahead of Fraser Rolling Eyes
_________________
Carlscum 120 years being cheating scum
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:03 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

What is it to you. Would you like to know more? Didn't I say I started already?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:12 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fraser draft was a disaster, which of course is not Fraser's fault, but we traded down the order to get McKee, who gave us no better service than a rookie ruckman might have given us. Pavlich at our original pick 3, I wouldn't have minded picking Fraser up at pick 1, because the two together would have delivered us the 2002 and 2003 premiership flags. Fraser was good floating down the ground and taking marks and kicking the odd goal or two, but was useless at the centre bounces, where Keating mauled him with his bigger body. In 2010 I think Fraser stated that he was a first ruckman in the team or nothing, so it was an easy choice for Malthouse to play Jolly instead (who wouldn't have preferred Jolly to Fraser?). Since Fraser was never going to replace Brown in the team his days were numbered at that point and hence left the club without being a premiership player, so you do feel a bit sorry for him.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:04 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

It's one of those apocryphal stories, but it was allegedly Josh who, in 2010 preseason when the club had a team meeting and asked the players to set goals, said "why don't we just win the fkn flag?"

I was dissapointed for him that he couldn't co-exist with Jolly. He deserved that flag.

_________________
I'd like to apologise to anyone I haven't offended yet. Be patient, I'm working through a list. You're entitled to your own opinion, but if it disagrees with mine, it's wrong.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:21 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

neil wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:


The question posed, as I understand it, by this thread is the value we got from players for the draft pick we used on them. Fraser was a solid player but I doubt that anyone seriously thought of him (sober) as a genuine star of the competition at any stage of the competition. Thomas was, at one stage (and only briefly, because he was cut down by injuries just after he reached his peak), genuinely considered by many to be the best player in the league. Pendelebury, Swan, Cloke were, likewise, the best - or very close to - in their position and in the handful of match-winning guns of the competition. Fraser was never much more than a role player who delivered much less than his skills and talent promised. Grundy is about 15 times the ruckman Fraser ever was but wasn’t even a top ten pick. Fraser played his most useful football as a third tall in our forward line. Even there, though, history tells us that he was about half as useful as Leigh Brown proved to be in the same role. I wouldn’t have Fraser in the top 25 Collingwood players so far this century and, judged against what we used to get him, we didn’t get the value we might have expected from a number 1 pick.

To try to put some flesh on the bones of that assertion, I would have, off the top of my head, all of the following players ahead of him (in no particular order) in the “value for pick” stakes:

Maxwell, O’Brien, Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Lockyer, Grundy, Tarrant, Toovey, Leigh Brown, Reid, Ball, Didak, Dawes, Sidebottom, Beams, Fasolo and both Davis’. If you start thinking about the other players we have recruited other than via the draft, it starts to become obvious just how little Fraser delivered, despite his obvious ability.
Seriously you have Lockyer Toovey Dawes Fasolo and the other Davis ahead of Fraser Rolling Eyes

As value for pick, of course. Toovey, for example, played 100 good, solid games out of his 150 and we gave nothing for him. Dawes, for further example, was a pick 28 who managed to play as a key forward in a premiership side. Players taken that late are hit and miss selections but he helped to break open the 2010 Grand Final Replay by imposing himself physically on the game. Number 1 should be a genuine champion or you have wasted your pick. I saw virtually every game Fraser played - whatever he was, he was no champion. He was a cog in a wheel. He certainly had heaps of natural ability but, for some reason, was consistently outplayed by players with half his talent. It was emblematic of his career that he was supplanted in a team by an ex-rookie and a guy who was recruited at about pick 75 when the rest of the football world thought Leigh Brown’s time was up and those two were difference-makers. It is a measure of quite how underwhelming Fraser’s career was that he wouldn’t get a game in the best Collingwood side of the last 20 years. You couldn’t pick him as a forward ahead of Tarrant, Cloke or Rocca and he wouldn’t even get a look-in as a ruckman - even though we weren’t much chop in the ruck for many of those years, he was so far behind Grundy and Jolly that he wouldn’t even be in the conversation.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 10 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group