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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:17 am
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Skills like kicking and handball and team work/bonding are what should be
learnt before a player steps up to TAC
Otherwise you start behind the skill player who took the time to prepare

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:32 am
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K wrote:
think positive wrote:
E wrote:
learning to dispose of the ball effectively while fatigued is the secret to success. running without practicing football skills while fatigued is a waste of an opportunity.


100 percent. Which is why we need to recruit more footballers less track stars. Most footballers can improve fitness (picture big Sav or Cloke puffing their guts out after 1 burst, but lasting the whole game, or Swannie with his 10 min bursts that catapulted him to superstardom) but not all trackstars can be taught to kick or handpass!


One would think so, but I'd like to see the data on how much aerobic capacity can be improved, compared with kicking skill.

I think Cloke always (until the last couple of years) had a high aerobic capacity for a man of his size.

On footballers vs. track stars, I'd think quite a few of our recruits in recent times count as neither (by elite standards).


True. And you’d have to wonder if the high injury count has come in part from straight athletes playing a game that is too physical for their bodies aptitude’s.

I think of the tanks playing for geeefrickenlong and the Hawkes. We haven’t had many of them in recent times, maybe Howe qualifies. Where is Leigh Brown!

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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:39 am
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Look at player like Dangerfield who looks very athletic and a big tank

Looks every inch a footballer---then look at a guy who is not quite that athletic looking who had a super tank

Dane Swan

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:59 am
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Elsewhere, the following has been claimed.

Quote:
I have a mate who has recently been on one of our lists who has a brother on another club's list (a very successful club) and they obviously compare notes. My mate was very surprised about the way Collingwood trained as opposed to what his brother told him about the other club's program and it was entirely due to the lack of Individual programs and groupings. Basically everyone trained the same at Collingwood (more or less).

He told me this about 2 years ago.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Davoren...
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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:39 am
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Our Irish friend greeted the boys today with the 2 kilometre time trial

Won narrowly by Tom Phillips

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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:58 am
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K wrote:
Elsewhere, the following has been claimed.

Quote:
I have a mate who has recently been on one of our lists who has a brother on another club's list (a very successful club) and they obviously compare notes. My mate was very surprised about the way Collingwood trained as opposed to what his brother told him about the other club's program and it was entirely due to the lack of Individual programs and groupings. Basically everyone trained the same at Collingwood (more or less).

He told me this about 2 years ago.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Davoren...


A mate recently on our list.......but told me two years ago and has a bro on a successful clubs list.

So this was the case two years ago ???

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:54 pm
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BazBoy wrote:
Our Irish friend greeted the boys today with the 2 kilometre time trial

Won narrowly by Tom Phillips


Wonder what the time was. A 6:09 was run at the Draft Combine. Apparently, this is good by AFL list standards. (Blicav's 1500m PB is 3:43, but he was a lot lighter at the time.)

In the video clip on the club site, it sounds like the 1600m split for Aish, who finished third, was 4:55... That'd be right on 6:09 pace if he maintained a completely even pace.

Err... just found out that Neil on Bigfooty gives the times, incl.
Phillips 6:08, Smith 6:09, Aish 6:36, Cox 7:01, Kirby 8:05.
Seems like a great effort by Cox. Need I mention that Cox vs. Kirby is a stark reality check for those who espouse an all-in "play the kids" philosophy?

Neil also gives some 2015 times for comparison, incl.
Smith 6:22, Aish 6:23.
Phillips and Langdon were roughly the same in the two years. From a couple of other smalls, it looks like improvements of about 12s are possible.
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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:17 pm
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AFL site has Bohdan Babijczuk overseeing training today.
Mixed thinking on him. Not sure if he is helping out of permanent.

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Albert Parker 



Joined: 13 Dec 2012


PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:01 am
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^Ex Hawks trainer with an athletics background?
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BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:47 am
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K wrote:
Elsewhere, the following has been claimed.

Quote:
I have a mate who has recently been on one of our lists who has a brother on another club's list (a very successful club) and they obviously compare notes. My mate was very surprised about the way Collingwood trained as opposed to what his brother told him about the other club's program and it was entirely due to the lack of Individual programs and groupings. Basically everyone trained the same at Collingwood (more or less).

He told me this about 2 years ago.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Davoren...

Except none of this is true for anyone attending and observing training in the last three or so years, but hey, the guy no longer works at Collingwood, so let's take pot shots at him.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:11 am
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
K wrote:
Elsewhere, the following has been claimed.

Quote:
I have a mate who has recently been on one of our lists who has a brother on another club's list (a very successful club) and they obviously compare notes. My mate was very surprised about the way Collingwood trained as opposed to what his brother told him about the other club's program and it was entirely due to the lack of Individual programs and groupings. Basically everyone trained the same at Collingwood (more or less).

He told me this about 2 years ago.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Davoren...

Except none of this is true for anyone attending and observing training in the last three or so years, but hey, the guy no longer works at Collingwood, so let's take pot shots at him.


I don't think a poster reporting his insider friend's comments means the poster is "taking pot shots". It's possible the player, whoever it was, was disgruntled about his time at the club, of course, but his reported comments were fairly mild.

I also think it unlikely the truth of the player's reported comments can be judged by observing training. First, the comments are a comparison with some other, unknown, club, so one would need to observe the training of that club, too... On that basis, I'm inclined to believe the player's claim.
Whether that's really a bad thing, e.g. whether lack of more individualization causes avoidable injuries, is a separate question.
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BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:40 am
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Well according to the quote everybody at Collingwood basically trained the same. That's clearly not true for anybody who has attended training at Collingwood. Training begins with the whole group doing limbering up exercises. Then they split up into groups for specialised training. Some days they do match sims where all the fit players participate. The injured players are separated where Davoren had them doing specialised programs. I'm guessing a lot goes on inside in the gym with the injured players where each individual has his own program of work to do.

Criticise Daroven all you like for not having players at the fitness level people would like to see, but don't criticise him for clearly erroneous information former disgruntled employees are putting out on social media.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:53 am
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Well according to the quote everybody at Collingwood basically trained the same. That's clearly not true for anybody who has attended training at Collingwood. Training begins with the whole group doing limbering up exercises. Then they split up into groups for specialised training. Some days they do match sims where all the fit players participate. The injured players are separated where Davoren had them doing specialised programs. I'm guessing a lot goes on inside in the gym with the injured players where each individual has his own program of work to do.

Criticise Daroven all you like for not having players at the fitness level people would like to see, but don't criticise him for clearly erroneous information former disgruntled employees are putting out on social media.


The person quoted was referring to training loads (which would have been Davoren's domain), not football drills (Buckley's domain). The fact that injured players were separated from fit players does little to dispel his claim. The belief among many supporters seems to be that injured players seemed simply to run laps.

Why guess about what is done inside the gym? Why assume that the former player said whatever he said just because he was disgruntled? It could be the case, but it's a pretty weird way to express disgruntlement. Most disgruntled players would probably just pot the coach.

White's statements about "rather than having two running groups..." and "an inside mid is so much different to a wing...", etc., are either meaningless fluff to keep CFC media happy (it's possible --- as I said before, the stuff about the balls coming out early is stuff we've heard before), or else suggest that he thinks there was not enough differentiation in the past.

I don't know. I'm not Kevin White. Or the guy in charge at the other club. Let alone both at the same time.
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BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:42 am
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That's not true what you're saying. The senior coach decides the training loads not the fitness guy, who basically takes the group at the start for their limbering up exercises, then does specialised training with certain players designed around their individual requirements. What also occurs is that individual players do extra sessions and often stay back at the end of training to work on their kicking or goal kicking skills. I've watched three clubs in the Flinders Park area train - Collingwood, Melbourne and Richmond. All train differently and it's the senior coach directing it all in conjunction with the assistant coaches. You can't say we train much more differently than the other two clubs.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:05 am
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
That's not true what you're saying. The senior coach decides the training loads not the fitness guy, who basically takes the group at the start for their limbering up exercises, then does specialised training with certain players designed around their individual requirements. What also occurs is that individual players do extra sessions and often stay back at the end of training to work on their kicking or goal kicking skills. I've watched three clubs in the Flinders Park area train - Collingwood, Melbourne and Richmond. All train differently and it's the senior coach directing it all in conjunction with the assistant coaches. You can't say we train much more differently than the other two clubs.


What evidence do you have that the senior coach decides the training loads?
I doubt this is true at any club, even one with a dictatorial, micro-managing coach. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other.

By "training load", I'm referring to the physical aspects, e.g. speed & running, weights, conditioning, etc., measured by things like distance run, distance run at high intensity, time spent at high heart rate, etc.
The football aspects are skills, tactics, etc.
Obviously, training will at times be a large overlap of the two categories.
But it makes sense that sessions that are heavily football skills will be directed by the coaches, and sessions that are heavily athletic will be directed by the strength & conditioning guys. I'd be surprised if it were otherwise. From the pre-season video clips, it certainly appears that Kevin White is in charge of those sessions.

No doubt the fitness guy and coach discuss things. No doubt the coach will object if he disagrees with the fitness guy's ideas. But it'd be madness if the coach is deciding on the training loads of all the individual players. Our club apparently has 10 strength & conditioning staff. Ignore the chef, etc., and it's around 5. You might as well get rid of most of them if in the end the senior coach makes the important decisions.

The skills sessions are restricted by what the conditioning staff want, even though they're not directing them. It all surely has to be planned beforehand, not just made up on the spot. The conditioning staff are the ones preventing players doing too much goal-kicking practice at the end of training, for example. And unless they start sharing their GPS data with us, I'd imagine it'd be very difficult to see what load each player is having just by watching.

And in games themselves, clubs are using software to decide the rotations, because it's too complicated for the humans to track.
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