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Boogie Knights
Joined: 18 Sep 2015
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For farks sake, give it a rest.
Blair is on the list until he isn't. I for one, as a proud Collingwood supporter, will support him until I have no voice left whenever he is selected in the 22. I will support him when he is not in the 22 and is instead providing immeasurable value to the VFL side.
If he is one of our best 22 fit players that fulfills the role given him by the coach, and helps us win games of footy and be competitive, I will be happy.
Likewise, if he is surpassed by another (possibly younger) player who helps us win games of footy and be competitive, I will also be happy.
I don't care who plays as long as we win games and are competitive.
Was I less happy last season when we were playing good footy at seasons end without Pendles? Hell no.
I will always support the 22 who take the field. I don't reserve my support for just 20 or 21, or just my favourite player/s. I support Collingwood.
Whether I think he should or shouldn't be playing is irrelevant. I do know a little about footy, but I don't pretend to know as much about it as the coaches, list managers and selection panel of the club.
I'm happy to debate whether I think Blair should or should be playing, but in so doing, I will make it clear it is only my opinion; and I won't belittle or begrudge anyone theirs.
Opinions though, are like a55holes, we all have them and some are full of sh1t - just as this debate has fallen to sh1t slinging. |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | It's so obvious E I don't know why we're having this argument? What would you rather do? Pump games into a player who is going to get better and better with each game or keep playing someone whose past is behind him and won't ever feature in another premiership? The former strategy lead to our last premiership yet you seem to favour a status quo which each year has been delivering few wins.
Also while I admire your support for a former premiership player, I don't admire your criticism of a player whose first up game against a formidable opponent in Melbourne could easily have yielded two goals and your other criticism of a player for his perceived inconsistency after a grand total of six games in his debut year! |
I don't feel he was criticising our first year players as such, but rather pointing out they needed more time to develop and learn the game , something the vfl provides better at times than the afl. Hence why we see these guys move in and out of the seniors. This has been the right of passage since the dawn of time. So when they need some time to cool their jets, Rest sore bodies and learn particular aspects of the game plan we rely on our fringe players with experience to step up and provide the chop out. That is what Blair has provided much to the undeserved rage and angst of his so called supporter base.
Do you think it's a good idea pumping game after game of senior footy into guys who physically are not up to the rigours of senior footy?
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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Woods 
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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| Onya, Blairy. Go get 'em in 2018. |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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| Boogie Knights wrote: | For farks sake, give it a rest.
Blair is on the list until he isn't. I for one, as a proud Collingwood supporter, will support him until I have no voice left whenever he is selected in the 22. I will support him when he is not in the 22 and is instead providing immeasurable value to the VFL side.
If he is one of our best 22 fit players that fulfills the role given him by the coach, and helps us win games of footy and be competitive, I will be happy.
Likewise, if he is surpassed by another (possibly younger) player who helps us win games of footy and be competitive, I will also be happy.
I don't care who plays as long as we win games and are competitive.
Was I less happy last season when we were playing good footy at seasons end without Pendles? Hell no.
I will always support the 22 who take the field. I don't reserve my support for just 20 or 21, or just my favourite player/s. I support Collingwood.
Whether I think he should or shouldn't be playing is irrelevant. I do know a little about footy, but I don't pretend to know as much about it as the coaches, list managers and selection panel of the club.
I'm happy to debate whether I think Blair should or should be playing, but in so doing, I will make it clear it is only my opinion; and I won't belittle or begrudge anyone theirs.
Opinions though, are like a55holes, we all have them and some are full of sh1t - just as this debate has fallen to sh1t slinging. |
OKAY! On that basis please alert Nick/mods to SHUT DOWN this site immediately and park all opinions into Port Phillip Bay!
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I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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Boogie Knights
Joined: 18 Sep 2015
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| inxs88 wrote: |
OKAY! On that basis please alert Nick/mods to SHUT DOWN this site immediately and park all opinions into Port Phillip Bay! |
I'm not normally one to buy into squabbles on here, but the whole thing with Blair has gone too far - in my opinion.
I'm all for people expressing their opinion and some healthy debate in so doing, but name calling and lack of respect takes it too far for me. It seems that every thread of late, regardless of topic, has been plagued with criticism over Blair (or Bucks).
There are some on her whose comments I will just skip over as I'm reasonably sure it'll be the same stuff sprouted as always, but yours are by no means an example of these. To be fair, I consider your posts, some of the more articulate and thoughtful and I look forward to reading them.
My rant was not directed at anyone in particular, but more that there are far too many people debating this point, it's gotten to the stage of mass debating. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Comparable stats to Mayne who even the coach pots. Still, not sure why all the hate for the wee man, he's an honest trier who pops up for a couple of goals now and again. Probably at the bottom end of the 22, but I've seen worse play for us over the journey. |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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| Boogie Knights wrote: | | inxs88 wrote: |
OKAY! On that basis please alert Nick/mods to SHUT DOWN this site immediately and park all opinions into Port Phillip Bay! |
I'm not normally one to buy into squabbles on here, but the whole thing with Blair has gone too far - in my opinion.
I'm all for people expressing their opinion and some healthy debate in so doing, but name calling and lack of respect takes it too far for me. It seems that every thread of late, regardless of topic, has been plagued with criticism over Blair (or Bucks).
There are some on her whose comments I will just skip over as I'm reasonably sure it'll be the same stuff sprouted as always, but yours are by no means an example of these. To be fair, I consider your posts, some of the more articulate and thoughtful and I look forward to reading them.
My rant was not directed at anyone in particular, but more that there are far too many people debating this point, it's gotten to the stage of mass debating. |
Thanks Dirk,
People seem to get irrational on this site when you question the validity of a players "on field exploits". They assume we are getting all personal, forgetful of past exploits and expect some historical loyalty in providing a life-time hall pass to remain on the list.
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I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Actually I regret my attack on the poster, which was prompted by my misreading the meaning of the original (and pretty strange) post title. I thought it was saying that it was deceptive conduct to class Blair as an AFL footballer. It may be that I misread that, and if I had noted that inxs (a quality poster) was the originator, I’d have held back.
Still, in the weeks after T Cloke retired commenting on the effect social media has on the mental well-being of very young men plying a very difficult trade, I’d really love to see us throttle back on the Blair-baiting. He shows plenty of courage on the field, but it is probably secondary to the courage he’d have to have, if he read the opinions about him on here, after his 150 games.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Podpicken 
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Mugwump wrote: | Actually I regret my attack on the poster, which was prompted by my misreading the meaning of the original (and pretty strange) post title. I thought it was saying that it was deceptive conduct to class Blair as an AFL footballer. It may be that I misread that, and if I had noted that inxs (a quality poster) was the originator, I’d have held back.
Still, in the weeks after T Cloke retired commenting on the effect social media has on the mental well-being of very young men plying a very difficult trade, I’d really love to see us throttle back on the Blair-baiting. He shows plenty of courage on the field, but it is probably secondary to the courage he’d have to have, if he read the opinions about him on here, after his 150 games. |
Great call.
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Billy Picken, the great No. 25 in the sky! |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | It's so obvious E I don't know why we're having this argument? What would you rather do? Pump games into a player who is going to get better and better with each game or keep playing someone whose past is behind him and won't ever feature in another premiership? The former strategy lead to our last premiership yet you seem to favour a status quo which each year has been delivering few wins.
Also while I admire your support for a former premiership player, I don't admire your criticism of a player whose first up game against a formidable opponent in Melbourne could easily have yielded two goals and your other criticism of a player for his perceived inconsistency after a grand total of six games in his debut year! |
i have two simple things to say in response (and by the way, your post is thoughtful and the criticism valid).
1. I do not subscribe to the theory that its in the best interests of a young player to "pump games" into him as a way to fast track his development. I actually believe just the opposite (and i also disagree that we simply pumped games into kids as a way to win our last premeirship - in fact it was precisely the opposite - people on this site were endlessly bitching in 2009 that we had to drop O'Bree Lockyer and Fraser as they were past it - but Malthouse didnt do that until the young kids passed them by - which they did).
People take for granted what is given to them. On the other hand, when we have to fight for things, work hard and overcome, they understand better what is expected of them. And the work hard and dont take things for granted. The great Hawthorn tams of the 80's didnt "pump games" into kids. their secret sauce was making players "earn" their spot in the team. Take a look at how many games Michael Tuck played in the reserves before he was played. also, look at Faz. I wonder if his new found work ethic is in fact from having games "pumped"into him, or whether it is from the time bucks dropped him to the twos to prove he wanted it badly enough.
Its just a difference of opinion. That is why, i say - Kirby, Brown and Daicos, need to surpass Blair and you say "blair is preventing us from pumping games into the young kids". I see Blair as value add, you see him as an obstacle.
I will say that the coach of your team very much thinks like me.
2. I wasnt intending to be critical of Kirby. He's a kid with time on his side and with hard work and proper development, i have really high hopes for him. I also thought him getting picked for one meaningless game at the end of the season was terrific for him to show him how much work he still has to do. I was just trying to highlight that in round 22 we saw that he isnt quite ready (on merit) to keep blair out of the team. That was really just to show that i believe that Blair still needs to be on the list because they havent caught him yet.
Look i think we all agree that Blair is a gutsy, professional, hard working player with some limitations. He does what he does really well, but we all seem to want a player in the team who has more tools than he does at that position. Hopefully there is someone coming through who can keep him out of the side. I think that our best 22 already doesn't include him (but injuries mean that some weeks, this isnt true). Until he is unable to get a game, what's so wrong with this guy being the 21st or 22nd player picked?
Finally, may i remind you that without the bitter baby, the sweet just aint as sweet.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| September Zeros wrote: | I'm not sure what impressed me more E, the utter slap down or your integration of "effluvium" into your post.
It's seems to me the circular nature of the Blair debate comes about because some just don't fully realise where exactly our list was and is at.
If our list keeps developing the way it started to late last year then Blair will be required less and less. That change started last year as he played less games than any season since his debut one of 2010.
I'd like to think that as that unfolds we could afford a guy who has given his absolute best despite his limitations a little respect. That's before we even get to his contribution to our last premiership. |
Thanks for noticing my use of effluvium. I thought this debate needed it! 
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| E wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | It's so obvious E I don't know why we're having this argument? What would you rather do? Pump games into a player who is going to get better and better with each game or keep playing someone whose past is behind him and won't ever feature in another premiership? The former strategy lead to our last premiership yet you seem to favour a status quo which each year has been delivering few wins.
... |
i have two simple things to say in response (and by the way, your post is thoughtful and the criticism valid).
1. I do not subscribe to the theory that its in the best interests of a young player to "pump games" into him as a way to fast track his development. I actually believe just the opposite (and i also disagree that we simply pumped games into kids as a way to win our last premeirship - in fact it was precisely the opposite - people on this site were endlessly bitching in 2009 that we had to drop O'Bree Lockyer and Fraser as they were past it - but Malthouse didnt do that until the young kids passed them by - which they did).
People take for granted what is given to them. On the other hand, when we have to fight for things, work hard and overcome, they understand better what is expected of them. And the work hard and dont take things for granted. The great Hawthorn tams of the 80's didnt "pump games" into kids. their secret sauce was making players "earn" their spot in the team. Take a look at how many games Michael Tuck played in the reserves before he was played. also, look at Faz. I wonder if his new found work ethic is in fact from having games "pumped"into him, or whether it is from the time bucks dropped him to the twos to prove he wanted it badly enough.
Its just a difference of opinion. That is why, i say - Kirby, Brown and Daicos, need to surpass Blair and you say "blair is preventing us from pumping games into the young kids". I see Blair as value add, you see him as an obstacle.
I will say that the coach of your team very much thinks like me.
.... |
Yeah, I was thinking of those Hawthorn teams before coming to that sentence, E. At the time, the common belief bandied about by commentators was that players had to learn their trade for maybe 75 games in the reserves before getting a game, and this was the reason for Hawthorn's success. But this could just as easily be claimed to have been a consequence of success, not a cause of it, i.e. the senior team had so many good players it was hard to get in.
Another point is that times have changed, and the gap between the VFL and AFL is now probably much bigger than in those days, because lists are smaller and there are a lot more than 12 teams now.
So how much AFL experience to give and how soon are not simple questions. |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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| Mugwump wrote: | Actually I regret my attack on the poster, which was prompted by my misreading the meaning of the original (and pretty strange) post title. I thought it was saying that it was deceptive conduct to class Blair as an AFL footballer. It may be that I misread that, and if I had noted that inxs (a quality poster) was the originator, I’d have held back.
Still, in the weeks after T Cloke retired commenting on the effect social media has on the mental well-being of very young men plying a very difficult trade, I’d really love to see us throttle back on the Blair-baiting. He shows plenty of courage on the field, but it is probably secondary to the courage he’d have to have, if he read the opinions about him on here, after his 150 games. |
Cheers Mugwump:
Yes, the original 'deceptive and misleading conduct" was a tongue in cheek reference to the club's list management team that snuck the possible extension of Blair. Not a slur on his character or contribution. Like many of my posts, I like to think they are factually constructed, aimed with a view of seeing our squad improve and not stuck in sycophantic nostalgia of a player's former self.
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I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| K wrote: | | E wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | It's so obvious E I don't know why we're having this argument? What would you rather do? Pump games into a player who is going to get better and better with each game or keep playing someone whose past is behind him and won't ever feature in another premiership? The former strategy lead to our last premiership yet you seem to favour a status quo which each year has been delivering few wins.
... |
i have two simple things to say in response (and by the way, your post is thoughtful and the criticism valid).
1. I do not subscribe to the theory that its in the best interests of a young player to "pump games" into him as a way to fast track his development. I actually believe just the opposite (and i also disagree that we simply pumped games into kids as a way to win our last premeirship - in fact it was precisely the opposite - people on this site were endlessly bitching in 2009 that we had to drop O'Bree Lockyer and Fraser as they were past it - but Malthouse didnt do that until the young kids passed them by - which they did).
People take for granted what is given to them. On the other hand, when we have to fight for things, work hard and overcome, they understand better what is expected of them. And the work hard and dont take things for granted. The great Hawthorn tams of the 80's didnt "pump games" into kids. their secret sauce was making players "earn" their spot in the team. Take a look at how many games Michael Tuck played in the reserves before he was played. also, look at Faz. I wonder if his new found work ethic is in fact from having games "pumped"into him, or whether it is from the time bucks dropped him to the twos to prove he wanted it badly enough.
Its just a difference of opinion. That is why, i say - Kirby, Brown and Daicos, need to surpass Blair and you say "blair is preventing us from pumping games into the young kids". I see Blair as value add, you see him as an obstacle.
I will say that the coach of your team very much thinks like me.
.... |
Yeah, I was thinking of those Hawthorn teams before coming to that sentence, E. At the time, the common belief bandied about by commentators was that players had to learn their trade for maybe 75 games in the reserves before getting a game, and this was the reason for Hawthorn's success. But this could just as easily be claimed to have been a consequence of success, not a cause of it, i.e. the senior team had so many good players it was hard to get in.
Another point is that times have changed, and the gap between the VFL and AFL is now probably much bigger than in those days, because lists are smaller and there are a lot more than 12 teams now.
So how much AFL experience to give and how soon are not simple questions. |
i couldnt agree more that it is a difficult question (hence why people here have wildly different views ranging from "gifting" games to crap players simply because they are young to making them come in at 100% AFL standard). It is 100% true for example that you cannot gauge how good a player is on VFL form and so the idea of seeing how players step up in meaningless games at the end of the year (like we did with Gault, Crocker and Kirby in previous years) is the only true way to see where a young player is at.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach and i am certain that different players require different treatment. I contrast Faz, who seemed to be a player who needed to know that AFL footy is something you earn and not a right, to a Pendlebury type who is going to be driven to be the best no matter when you play him at AFL level. in my opinion, the former needs to be made to earn it and the latter should be in the team from day 1!
That is a little bit of a side debate though (aka a red herring) and the answer to the above question doesn't change my main point.
My main point is this.
What could possibly be wrong with keeping a true professional at the club on a modest salary for one extra year so that in the event you want Faz or Daicos or Brown or Kirby to EARN their position, you have someone to fill the gap in a fairly credible way. He appears to be a better option for that role than Chris Mayne, Jordan Russell, Tony Armstrong, Patrick Karnezis or others that we have tried to bring in over the years to fill that role. The important thing with Blair is that he seems to have accepted that he isnt a first 22 player and that doesn't stop him from being completely professional and ready to "step-up" and do his best whenever he is called on. a lot of AFL players would get either petulant, sooky, disruptive or depressed (did you see the article on Ben Kennedy). in my opinion, this a valuable asset on any team list (and ideally, player 25, 26 and 27 on the list is a competent version of this type of person - i call it the Blair role).
And the reason i defend him is because people dont judge Blair based on his role - the Blair role. They judge him compared to guys like Elliot (i.e., a key part of our best 22). He isnt that guy (and hasnt been for the past 2 years) and we shouldn't be watching him and judging him by that standard.
And for the record, if we allowed Travis Cloke to evolve from star to merely a role player, maybe we wouldnt have criticized him so much and maybe he could have been a productive third tall in our forward line (just as Ant Rocca was allowed to do in 2007 ironically because we had a young stud on our list named - yep you guessed it - Travis Cloke!).
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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droversdog65
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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One of the hardest skills to learn in coaching is picking that 'purple patch' moment, when a kid is actually blossoming, rather than the usual peaks and troughs of a kid learning the game.
Pick the blossoming moment and all of a sudden you have a skilled young player capable of adapting to the rigors of AFL.
Pick the peak before the trough and you can destroy their confidence by promoting them before their time. |
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