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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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inxs88 wrote: | E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | Wow! The vitriol, going the poster, the acceptance of mediocrity is palpable. Who would you rather (as you call it) as our best 25th player next year:
J Daicos
K Kirby
C Brown
J Aish
Or delisted free agents:
T McKenzie
L Hansen
M Close
S Collins
B Hartung
M White
B Lennon
M Talia
All of whom above surely provide more impact than Blair. We are a club that needs to be honest with itself and the perseverance of Blair is effectively an exercise in dishonest list management. |
Given what we gave up to get Aish and the coin he is on, Aish had better bloody well be in the best 22 next year!!!
As for the other 3, Kirby, Daicos and Brown, i have them in the 30-40 part of our list (i.e., the 10 or so young players we hope one day soon to be in our best 22). If you want to win games (which in 2018 is going to be the main goal of our club - i hope), playing Kirby or Daicos ahead of Blair on exposed form is folly!! When they are ready (and prove they are better than Blair in the first instance and then members of the best 22 in the second instance) they will all get games ahead of Blair. Until then, give me more Blair! It worked in 2010 - players weren't gifted spots - they had to prove they were good enough to replace O'Bree, Lockyer and Fraser! ironically, Blair was one of the guys who proved he was better than Lockyer and O'Bree and he helped take a top 4 team over the top!
This is AFL football man, not little league. It is not a participation sport. Only the best deserve games. The 22 blokes best able to win me games are the 22 i want on the field.
There is no one on the reject list you have provided that i would play as my high defensive pressure forward ahead of Blair. |
First of all I'm not your "man" and secondly you have argued yourself indirectly into agreeing with me. How?? Well you're correct in the assertion that Blair in 2010 kept blokes whom were cooked such as O'Bree, Lockyer and Medhurst out of our Premiership winning side after only playing 8 games.
Blair in 2018 is NOW Lockyer, O'Bree and Medhurst. Cooked cooked cooked. Averaged 2.5 kicks/game this year and is the embodiment of football irrelevancy! |
Sadly, i think you might have missed the point completely. Those guys you say were "cooked" were the 25th, 26th and 27th best players on our list!!! They provided an unbelievably good role in our premiership. They set a bar that yopung players had to jump to get them out of the team.
Blair was not gifted a spot. He worked his frickin butt off, first as a rookie, and then as an list player.
So if you can accept that it was good having Lockyer on the list in 2010 (and how can you disagree with anything we did in 2010 without looking stupid), then let's just agree that Blair is good for us (and we can both hope we have enough pplayers that are better than him so you never have to comment on him this year).
PS: pretty sure i didnt call you my man. i dont even know if you are human, much less male, much less a male that i would like to own?!?!?
Similarly, if you want me to respect you, dont disparage our premiership heroes. I'm quite certain he has done more to have earnt your respect and gratitude than you have done to gain mine. _________________ Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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jatsad wrote: | Pies2016 wrote: | I'm not going to buy into the Blair cheap shots but what I would ask, is the following -
Can anyone possibly give me a SENSIBLE reason why Buckley, whose coaching career is on the line, would choose not to play his best possible 22 that are available to him ?
We can all say what we like. We can all convince ourselves that we know more about footy than the footy dept but the fact remains, Blair has been picked because he was considered part of the best 22 who were available at the time.
You all wanted Kirby to debut and how did that go when he finally got his " long overdue " chance.
I don't expect Blair to play much senior footy in 2018 but whether he does or doesn't, I won't be kidding myself that I know more than the 1000 games of AFL experience that our coaching panel has collectively put together. |
These are hardly cheap shots at Blair. They are considered and question his output over the games he has played. He was repeatedly dropped this year for poor form and in some cases was restored to AFL duties with similar poor form. He does not impact the scoreboard, does not make good decisions when he does get the ball and his pressure, which everyone assumes is the reason he is being selected, is way below acceptable.
This is nothing personal against Blair, just views based on cold, hard facts.
Having a go at Kirby after 1 game is a very poor reference point as well.
The game has passed Blair by and the sooner the young guys are preferred, the better the team will be.
In not only mine but most Nickster's opinion, he would make an outstanding VFL captain who could help mentor the young recruits. This may be his best option to impact at Collingwood in the future. |
the game may have passed Blair by (we can debate that). What hasnt passed Blair though is KIRBY!! On exposed form, he has a long way to go before a team With Kirby in it is better than a team with Blair in it. Hopefully after another preseason, things will be different next year, but i would keep Blair until there can be no debate about this!! fortunately, the people that run our footy club listen to me. _________________ Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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Post subject: | |
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Pies2016 wrote: | I'm not going to buy into the Blair cheap shots but what I would ask, is the following -
Can anyone possibly give me a SENSIBLE reason why Buckley, whose coaching career is on the line, would choose not to play his best possible 22 that are available to him ?
We can all say what we like. We can all convince ourselves that we know more about footy than the footy dept but the fact remains, Blair has been picked because he was considered part of the best 22 who were available at the time.
You all wanted Kirby to debut and how did that go when he finally got his " long overdue " chance.
I don't expect Blair to play much senior footy in 2018 but whether he does or doesn't, I won't be kidding myself that I know more than the 1000 games of AFL experience that our coaching panel has collectively put together. |
SPOT ON! _________________ Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | Wow! The vitriol, going the poster, the acceptance of mediocrity is palpable. Who would you rather (as you call it) as our best 25th player next year:
J Daicos
K Kirby
C Brown
J Aish
Or delisted free agents:
T McKenzie
L Hansen
M Close
S Collins
B Hartung
M White
B Lennon
M Talia
All of whom above surely provide more impact than Blair. We are a club that needs to be honest with itself and the perseverance of Blair is effectively an exercise in dishonest list management. |
Given what we gave up to get Aish and the coin he is on, Aish had better bloody well be in the best 22 next year!!!
As for the other 3, Kirby, Daicos and Brown, i have them in the 30-40 part of our list (i.e., the 10 or so young players we hope one day soon to be in our best 22). If you want to win games (which in 2018 is going to be the main goal of our club - i hope), playing Kirby or Daicos ahead of Blair on exposed form is folly!! When they are ready (and prove they are better than Blair in the first instance and then members of the best 22 in the second instance) they will all get games ahead of Blair. Until then, give me more Blair! It worked in 2010 - players weren't gifted spots - they had to prove they were good enough to replace O'Bree, Lockyer and Fraser! ironically, Blair was one of the guys who proved he was better than Lockyer and O'Bree and he helped take a top 4 team over the top!
This is AFL football man, not little league. It is not a participation sport. Only the best deserve games. The 22 blokes best able to win me games are the 22 i want on the field.
There is no one on the reject list you have provided that i would play as my high defensive pressure forward ahead of Blair. |
First of all I'm not your "man" and secondly you have argued yourself indirectly into agreeing with me. How?? Well you're correct in the assertion that Blair in 2010 kept blokes whom were cooked such as O'Bree, Lockyer and Medhurst out of our Premiership winning side after only playing 8 games.
Blair in 2018 is NOW Lockyer, O'Bree and Medhurst. Cooked cooked cooked. Averaged 2.5 kicks/game this year and is the embodiment of football irrelevancy! |
Sadly, i think you might have missed the point completely. Those guys you say were "cooked" were the 25th, 26th and 27th best players on our list!!! They provided an unbelievably good role in our premiership. They set a bar that yopung players had to jump to get them out of the team.
Blair was not gifted a spot. He worked his frickin butt off, first as a rookie, and then as an list player.
So if you can accept that it was good having Lockyer on the list in 2010 (and how can you disagree with anything we did in 2010 without looking stupid), then let's just agree that Blair is good for us (and we can both hope we have enough pplayers that are better than him so you never have to comment on him this year).
PS: pretty sure i didnt call you my man. i dont even know if you are human, much less male, much less a male that i would like to own?!?!?
Similarly, if you want me to respect you, dont disparage our premiership heroes. I'm quite certain he has done more to have earnt your respect and gratitude than you have done to gain mine. |
There is an expression that "you can't negotiate with terrorists" and equally "you cannot argue with self-righteousness". All of Lockyer, Medhurst, O'Bree and even Fraser were de-listed or retired at the end of 2010 and were of know benefit in 2011+
Blair's 2010 contribution in 2010 has never been disputed. Blair of 2018 is exactly Lockyer & Co. of 2011+. Simply Redundant.
Put games into:
* C. Brown
* Kirby
* Daicos
* plus any draft picks that show some upside in 2018.
We as a club need to go forward! _________________ I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012 Location: Behind you
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I believe the football department are well aware of the sector of the public who continue to cry why Blair? Why??
I also believe the Kirby debut was thier obvious and all conquering answer at the time to that question as he clearly wasn't ready managing just 5 disposals and zero goals- he looked unfit and not AFL ready- for those focused on stats ....Blair this year was good for close to 1 a game (0.9) .... in our premiership year 2010 he averaged 0.6 yet we constantly lament how great he was in 2010 but far he's fallen since.
It's hard to believe we keep going round and around on this topic. It's harder still to fathom why he is such a focal point of angst.
IMO No one overrates the guy, not even bucks. He was close to being dislodged towards the end of the year and as the group was starting to grow he started being omitted while the likes of daicos and brown and co had their first taste. This year he played the least amount of games over the season since his debut year in 2010 playing just 12 whilst being fit majority of the year!! Yet Bucks plays favourites ???
Blair is a fringe player (and a good one) who works so dam hard he's very hard to keep out of the side when injuries pop up and that is exactly what you want- it means to get your spot in the 22 - the kirbys , browns and daicos's have to work just as hard if not harder to move their way up the queue.
Blairs resigning makes perfect sense imo. _________________ No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
________________ |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Pies4shaw wrote: | And, in any event, Blair is just a distraction - there's a reason we have pick 5 and Blair alone isn't it. |
yup _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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^^^
Good balanced post from S. Z.
I would also add that's Maynes inability to make any impact to our best 22 on the day also meant that Blair got a few extra games in 2017 than he otherwise would have. Hardly Blairs fault that Mayne was totally inept through the 2017 season.
The Mayne addition also shows that Collingwood is well aware that defensive pressure in our own forward line is something that we are very deficient in ( which only helped to further add to Blairs game tally )
Had the Mayne addition been successful or had we have traded in another small defensive forward, then Blair would have spent more time in the VFL.
I would be confident in 2018, there are more options available with an extra years development, who can take his place.
Stop worrying.
Last edited by Pies2016 on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mudlark
Joined: 19 Mar 2002 Location: Maroochydore Qld
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You're all forgetting Josh Smith is still on the list, which is even more appalling in my opinion.If these 2 play in the seniors in any game together, ink in a loss. |
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masoncox
masoncox
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
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September Zeros wrote: | I believe the football department are well aware of the sector of the public who continue to cry why Blair? Why??
I also believe the Kirby debut was thier obvious and all conquering answer at the time to that question as he clearly wasn't ready managing just 5 disposals and zero goals- he looked unfit and not AFL ready- for those focused on stats ....Blair this year was good for close to 1 a game (0.9) .... in our premiership year 2010 he averaged 0.6 yet we constantly lament how great he was in 2010 but far he's fallen since.
It's hard to believe we keep going round and around on this topic. It's harder still to fathom why he is such a focal point of angst.
IMO No one overrates the guy, not even bucks. He was close to being dislodged towards the end of the year and as the group was starting to grow he started being omitted while the likes of daicos and brown and co had their first taste. This year he played the least amount of games over the season since his debut year in 2010 playing just 12 whilst being fit majority of the year!! Yet Bucks plays favourites ???
Blair is a fringe player (and a good one) who works so dam hard he's very hard to keep out of the side when injuries pop up and that is exactly what you want- it means to get your spot in the 22 - the kirbys , browns and daicos's have to work just as hard if not harder to move their way up the queue.
Blairs resigning makes perfect sense imo. |
Last year Blair's manager shopped him around and he was met with absolute silence. So the Market valued Blair at zero. And that is what he is worth acording to me and others. And guess what? The market has backed up our opinion and it has given your opinion the flick. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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masoncox wrote: | September Zeros wrote: | I believe the football department are well aware of the sector of the public who continue to cry why Blair? Why??
I also believe the Kirby debut was thier obvious and all conquering answer at the time to that question as he clearly wasn't ready managing just 5 disposals and zero goals- he looked unfit and not AFL ready- for those focused on stats ....Blair this year was good for close to 1 a game (0.9) .... in our premiership year 2010 he averaged 0.6 yet we constantly lament how great he was in 2010 but far he's fallen since.
It's hard to believe we keep going round and around on this topic. It's harder still to fathom why he is such a focal point of angst.
IMO No one overrates the guy, not even bucks. He was close to being dislodged towards the end of the year and as the group was starting to grow he started being omitted while the likes of daicos and brown and co had their first taste. This year he played the least amount of games over the season since his debut year in 2010 playing just 12 whilst being fit majority of the year!! Yet Bucks plays favourites ???
Blair is a fringe player (and a good one) who works so dam hard he's very hard to keep out of the side when injuries pop up and that is exactly what you want- it means to get your spot in the 22 - the kirbys , browns and daicos's have to work just as hard if not harder to move their way up the queue.
Blairs resigning makes perfect sense imo. |
Last year Blair's manager shopped him around and he was met with absolute silence. So the Market valued Blair at zero. And that is what he is worth acording to me and others. And guess what? The market has backed up our opinion and it has given your opinion the flick. |
But the wee Lad is like a bad Penny, he just keeps turning Up !! _________________ Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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inxs88 wrote: | E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | Wow! The vitriol, going the poster, the acceptance of mediocrity is palpable. Who would you rather (as you call it) as our best 25th player next year:
J Daicos
K Kirby
C Brown
J Aish
Or delisted free agents:
T McKenzie
L Hansen
M Close
S Collins
B Hartung
M White
B Lennon
M Talia
All of whom above surely provide more impact than Blair. We are a club that needs to be honest with itself and the perseverance of Blair is effectively an exercise in dishonest list management. |
Given what we gave up to get Aish and the coin he is on, Aish had better bloody well be in the best 22 next year!!!
As for the other 3, Kirby, Daicos and Brown, i have them in the 30-40 part of our list (i.e., the 10 or so young players we hope one day soon to be in our best 22). If you want to win games (which in 2018 is going to be the main goal of our club - i hope), playing Kirby or Daicos ahead of Blair on exposed form is folly!! When they are ready (and prove they are better than Blair in the first instance and then members of the best 22 in the second instance) they will all get games ahead of Blair. Until then, give me more Blair! It worked in 2010 - players weren't gifted spots - they had to prove they were good enough to replace O'Bree, Lockyer and Fraser! ironically, Blair was one of the guys who proved he was better than Lockyer and O'Bree and he helped take a top 4 team over the top!
This is AFL football man, not little league. It is not a participation sport. Only the best deserve games. The 22 blokes best able to win me games are the 22 i want on the field.
There is no one on the reject list you have provided that i would play as my high defensive pressure forward ahead of Blair. |
First of all I'm not your "man" and secondly you have argued yourself indirectly into agreeing with me. How?? Well you're correct in the assertion that Blair in 2010 kept blokes whom were cooked such as O'Bree, Lockyer and Medhurst out of our Premiership winning side after only playing 8 games.
Blair in 2018 is NOW Lockyer, O'Bree and Medhurst. Cooked cooked cooked. Averaged 2.5 kicks/game this year and is the embodiment of football irrelevancy! |
Sadly, i think you might have missed the point completely. Those guys you say were "cooked" were the 25th, 26th and 27th best players on our list!!! They provided an unbelievably good role in our premiership. They set a bar that yopung players had to jump to get them out of the team.
Blair was not gifted a spot. He worked his frickin butt off, first as a rookie, and then as an list player.
So if you can accept that it was good having Lockyer on the list in 2010 (and how can you disagree with anything we did in 2010 without looking stupid), then let's just agree that Blair is good for us (and we can both hope we have enough pplayers that are better than him so you never have to comment on him this year).
PS: pretty sure i didnt call you my man. i dont even know if you are human, much less male, much less a male that i would like to own?!?!?
Similarly, if you want me to respect you, dont disparage our premiership heroes. I'm quite certain he has done more to have earnt your respect and gratitude than you have done to gain mine. |
There is an expression that "you can't negotiate with terrorists" and equally "you cannot argue with self-righteousness". All of Lockyer, Medhurst, O'Bree and even Fraser were de-listed or retired at the end of 2010 and were of know benefit in 2011+
Blair's 2010 contribution in 2010 has never been disputed. Blair of 2018 is exactly Lockyer & Co. of 2011+. Simply Redundant.
Put games into:
* C. Brown
* Kirby
* Daicos
* plus any draft picks that show some upside in 2018.
We as a club need to go forward! |
The big difference between Blair in 2017 and Lockyer/O'Bree/Fraser in 2010 is that in 2010 there was absolutely no doubt that they wouldn't get another game (such was the quality of those that had passed them by - Sidebottom, Beams, Blair, Jolly, Ball, etc.). Sadly for us fans in 2017, you absolutely cant say that. Brown has shown a bit (with no consistency), Daicos a little less, and Kirby absolutely NOTHING! As for Mayne, the guy who was supposed to assure Blair's departure..... hmmmm, well the less said the better.
You need to think before you speak like a know-all! You can look a little silly when you miss the mark by so much.
PS: Your histrionics was quite funny to read. Terrorist, self-righteous!! What a crack up. Sadly, it it is effluvium like this that ruins healthy debate.
Reality is the you cant debate effectively with someone who is right. And you cant debate at all when you completely miss the point being made by others that you seek to belittle. _________________ Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012 Location: Behind you
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I'm not sure what impressed me more E, the utter slap down or your integration of "effluvium" into your post.
It's seems to me the circular nature of the Blair debate comes about because some just don't fully realise where exactly our list was and is at.
If our list keeps developing the way it started to late last year then Blair will be required less and less. That change started last year as he played less games than any season since his debut one of 2010.
I'd like to think that as that unfolds we could afford a guy who has given his absolute best despite his limitations a little respect. That's before we even get to his contribution to our last premiership. _________________ No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
________________ |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: Elwood
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It's so obvious E I don't know why we're having this argument? What would you rather do? Pump games into a player who is going to get better and better with each game or keep playing someone whose past is behind him and won't ever feature in another premiership? The former strategy lead to our last premiership yet you seem to favour a status quo which each year has been delivering few wins.
Also while I admire your support for a former premiership player, I don't admire your criticism of a player whose first up game against a formidable opponent in Melbourne could easily have yielded two goals and your other criticism of a player for his perceived inconsistency after a grand total of six games in his debut year! |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | E wrote: | inxs88 wrote: | Wow! The vitriol, going the poster, the acceptance of mediocrity is palpable. Who would you rather (as you call it) as our best 25th player next year:
J Daicos
K Kirby
C Brown
J Aish
Or delisted free agents:
T McKenzie
L Hansen
M Close
S Collins
B Hartung
M White
B Lennon
M Talia
All of whom above surely provide more impact than Blair. We are a club that needs to be honest with itself and the perseverance of Blair is effectively an exercise in dishonest list management. |
Given what we gave up to get Aish and the coin he is on, Aish had better bloody well be in the best 22 next year!!!
As for the other 3, Kirby, Daicos and Brown, i have them in the 30-40 part of our list (i.e., the 10 or so young players we hope one day soon to be in our best 22). If you want to win games (which in 2018 is going to be the main goal of our club - i hope), playing Kirby or Daicos ahead of Blair on exposed form is folly!! When they are ready (and prove they are better than Blair in the first instance and then members of the best 22 in the second instance) they will all get games ahead of Blair. Until then, give me more Blair! It worked in 2010 - players weren't gifted spots - they had to prove they were good enough to replace O'Bree, Lockyer and Fraser! ironically, Blair was one of the guys who proved he was better than Lockyer and O'Bree and he helped take a top 4 team over the top!
This is AFL football man, not little league. It is not a participation sport. Only the best deserve games. The 22 blokes best able to win me games are the 22 i want on the field.
There is no one on the reject list you have provided that i would play as my high defensive pressure forward ahead of Blair. |
First of all I'm not your "man" and secondly you have argued yourself indirectly into agreeing with me. How?? Well you're correct in the assertion that Blair in 2010 kept blokes whom were cooked such as O'Bree, Lockyer and Medhurst out of our Premiership winning side after only playing 8 games.
Blair in 2018 is NOW Lockyer, O'Bree and Medhurst. Cooked cooked cooked. Averaged 2.5 kicks/game this year and is the embodiment of football irrelevancy! |
Sadly, i think you might have missed the point completely. Those guys you say were "cooked" were the 25th, 26th and 27th best players on our list!!! They provided an unbelievably good role in our premiership. They set a bar that yopung players had to jump to get them out of the team.
Blair was not gifted a spot. He worked his frickin butt off, first as a rookie, and then as an list player.
So if you can accept that it was good having Lockyer on the list in 2010 (and how can you disagree with anything we did in 2010 without looking stupid), then let's just agree that Blair is good for us (and we can both hope we have enough pplayers that are better than him so you never have to comment on him this year).
PS: pretty sure i didnt call you my man. i dont even know if you are human, much less male, much less a male that i would like to own?!?!?
Similarly, if you want me to respect you, dont disparage our premiership heroes. I'm quite certain he has done more to have earnt your respect and gratitude than you have done to gain mine. |
There is an expression that "you can't negotiate with terrorists" and equally "you cannot argue with self-righteousness". All of Lockyer, Medhurst, O'Bree and even Fraser were de-listed or retired at the end of 2010 and were of know benefit in 2011+
Blair's 2010 contribution in 2010 has never been disputed. Blair of 2018 is exactly Lockyer & Co. of 2011+. Simply Redundant.
Put games into:
* C. Brown
* Kirby
* Daicos
* plus any draft picks that show some upside in 2018.
We as a club need to go forward! |
The big difference between Blair in 2017 and Lockyer/O'Bree/Fraser in 2010 is that in 2010 there was absolutely no doubt that they wouldn't get another game (such was the quality of those that had passed them by - Sidebottom, Beams, Blair, Jolly, Ball, etc.). Sadly for us fans in 2017, you absolutely cant say that. Brown has shown a bit (with no consistency), Daicos a little less, and Kirby absolutely NOTHING! As for Mayne, the guy who was supposed to assure Blair's departure..... hmmmm, well the less said the better.
You need to think before you speak like a know-all! You can look a little silly when you miss the mark by so much.
PS: Your histrionics was quite funny to read. Terrorist, self-righteous!! What a crack up. Sadly, it it is effluvium like this that ruins healthy debate.
Reality is the you cant debate effectively with someone who is right. And you cant debate at all when you completely miss the point being made by others that you seek to belittle. |
Your diatribe speaks for itself. Sad _________________ I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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masoncox
masoncox
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
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True Inxs88. |
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