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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Swoop makes a good point though. it's easy to try to fit people into boxes or labels, but people are complex and often contradictory.
Power can be relative. Like Mugwump I've worked with women who knew how to use their "sex appeal" to their advantage and could utterly disempower the average bloke with a look. (It goes without saying I've also seen plenty of women unable to deal or compete with these types of women and men)
The argument that this is a product of capitalism is so ridiculous it's funny. Power is relative. If you have something that others want, you have power. You can have power based on looks, wealth, position/role, abilities or possessions to make a non-exclusive list. |
It's interesting that a thread about Weinstein and his abuse of power regarding sexual abuse including rape becomes a discussion about women as sexual predators. The discussion here has mostly been conducted by men. |
Not especially interesting, no, unless it is interesting that coins have two sides. And yes, most of the writers here are men. That should not prohibit them from discussing complementary and relevant issues which reflect their experience.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Swoop makes a good point though. it's easy to try to fit people into boxes or labels, but people are complex and often contradictory.
Power can be relative. Like Mugwump I've worked with women who knew how to use their "sex appeal" to their advantage and could utterly disempower the average bloke with a look. (It goes without saying I've also seen plenty of women unable to deal or compete with these types of women and men)
The argument that this is a product of capitalism is so ridiculous it's funny. Power is relative. If you have something that others want, you have power. You can have power based on looks, wealth, position/role, abilities or possessions to make a non-exclusive list. |
It's interesting that a thread about Weinstein and his abuse of power regarding sexual abuse including rape becomes a discussion about women as sexual predators. The discussion here has mostly been conducted by men. |
I'm just offering up known info around power and the abuse of it, I'm not excusing his behaviour. Your problem would be what?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ yep, that Brownmiller book just goes on being wrong. Cf "writing is about power, not literature." Perhaps in its day, it had value as a kind of brick bunged at the shop window of masculinity, but its fervent overreach has been pretty much totally discredited by factual analysis, since.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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I'm sure power not being a factor in rape sits well with young right wing men & their pathological abreaction to feminism.
To dismiss power as a factor in rape whether it be on male or females defies logic.
Woko's reference leads with "The main factors driving sexual assaults may be the attractiveness and vulnerability of young people of both genders, rather than negative attitudes toward women, a new study suggests".
Now if I want to equivocate I'd use words like may, might suggest etc. in a study.
Bullshit indeed is required to dismiss the notion of power in rape.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Rape is about power, not sex is a distinctly 80s piece of dogma that has had remarkable staying power. I was having an argument about this with someone else just the other day. Of course the desire for power or dominance is a relevant motivation for many acts of rape and sexual assault; but so too, of course, is sexual desire. A more accurate saying would be that rape is often just as much about power as it is about sex.
Weinsteins case is an excellent example of both of those things in action. Clearly, he had certain sexual predilections (exposing himself, for instance) and also got off on the power of doing what he liked to famous, beautiful actresses. And thats what I mean by my reference to capitalism the dark heart of capitalism is the immense power that it centralises within individuals, who have the ability to make or break others lives and can abuse that power with impunity. That process isnt unique to capitalism, but it does seem to be an inevitable consequence of it.
| swoop42 wrote: | | David wrote: | An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:
http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true
Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of progressive causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice. |
Or perhaps people are just complex.
It might blow the mind of some narrow minded people but it's entirely possible for people to display offensive behaviour in one area of their life and still have good morals for everything else.
For example you can be a sex offender but still love animals, be fiercely loyal to your family and generous to people less fortunate.
Personally I believe sexual desire for a lot of men is the most primal and powerful feeling they can ever achieve and it can drive some men do a lot of things they shouldn't in the moment of high arousal.
Speaking generally the problem is we focus so much on the one time someone messes up and not the 999 times they resist and the stigma surrounding sex offending does nothing to help people seek out help or allow them to move forward with their lives if they've served their penance and taken genuine steps to stop their behaviour reoccurring. |
I agree with a lot of this, Swoop, but I think theres also something to be said for the way in which ones public morality can be a performance, or a mechanism to avoid scrutiny. The trouble with Weinstein was that this wasnt a one-time slip-up, but rather habitual behaviour for almost three decades that he clearly thought he could get away with, and he used his position to get away with it and to silence his victims. Im all about providing services for people with sexual disorders or dysfunctional behaviours and we do need to do much better in that area but I find it unlikely that Weinstein would have ever availed himself of them. It took public outrage and the fact of actually being sacked for him to finally seek sex addiction counselling, and even then, for all we know, thats just another performance so that he can triumphantly return to his position a changed man once this has all blown over.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Courtney Love 2005:
Reporter: "Do you have any advice for a young girl moving to Hollywood?"
Love: "If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party at the Four Seasons, don't go." |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Swoop makes a good point though. it's easy to try to fit people into boxes or labels, but people are complex and often contradictory.
Power can be relative. Like Mugwump I've worked with women who knew how to use their "sex appeal" to their advantage and could utterly disempower the average bloke with a look. (It goes without saying I've also seen plenty of women unable to deal or compete with these types of women and men)
The argument that this is a product of capitalism is so ridiculous it's funny. Power is relative. If you have something that others want, you have power. You can have power based on looks, wealth, position/role, abilities or possessions to make a non-exclusive list. |
It's interesting that a thread about Weinstein and his abuse of power regarding sexual abuse including rape becomes a discussion about women as sexual predators. The discussion here has mostly been conducted by men. |
.....Your problem would be what? |
Dr Freud, Dr Melanie Klein and Dr Jung would all need to write PhD theses to get to the bottom of that.  
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | Courtney Love 2005:
Reporter: "Do you have any advice for a young girl moving to Hollywood?"
Love: "If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party at the Four Seasons, don't go." |
Good (unfortuante) get.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | Rape is about power, not sex is a distinctly 80s piece of dogma that has had remarkable staying power. I was having an argument about this with someone else just the other day. Of course the desire for power or dominance is a relevant motivation for many acts of rape and sexual assault; but so too, of course, is sexual desire. A more accurate saying would be that rape is often just as much about power as it is about sex.
........ |
A more accurate way of saying it would not be equal measure but power is a necessary but not sufficent factor to explain rape. Does the same apply to sexual desire?
Then we need to define the term sex
Anyway you might like this article:
"....Weinsteins alleged acts involved quid pro quo offers, requests to be watched in the shower and for massages, naked pursuits of targets around couches. Such actions are sexual harassment.
But they are not just harassment. These are criminal acts that, if proved, would lead to jail time not just fines and wrist-slapping. Language out of a Henry James novel made it sound as if rape was like using the wrong fork: Mistreatment of women, misbehaviour, indiscretions. Or misconduct, like a bad orchestra. Reporters used episode or the 70s-ish, hot tub-ish, encounter...."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/14/sexual-assault-report-women-culture-of-silence
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | Rape is about power, not sex is a distinctly 80s piece of dogma that has had remarkable staying power. I was having an argument about this with someone else just the other day. Of course the desire for power or dominance is a relevant motivation for many acts of rape and sexual assault; but so too, of course, is sexual desire. A more accurate saying would be that rape is often just as much about power as it is about sex.
Weinsteins case is an excellent example of both of those things in action. Clearly, he had certain sexual predilections (exposing himself, for instance) and also got off on the power of doing what he liked to famous, beautiful actresses. And thats what I mean by my reference to capitalism the dark heart of capitalism is the immense power that it centralises within individuals, who have the ability to make or break others lives and can abuse that power with impunity. That process isnt unique to capitalism, but it does seem to be an inevitable consequence of it.
| swoop42 wrote: | | David wrote: | An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:
http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true
Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of progressive causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice. |
Or perhaps people are just complex.
It might blow the mind of some narrow minded people but it's entirely possible for people to display offensive behaviour in one area of their life and still have good morals for everything else.
For example you can be a sex offender but still love animals, be fiercely loyal to your family and generous to people less fortunate.
Personally I believe sexual desire for a lot of men is the most primal and powerful feeling they can ever achieve and it can drive some men do a lot of things they shouldn't in the moment of high arousal.
Speaking generally the problem is we focus so much on the one time someone messes up and not the 999 times they resist and the stigma surrounding sex offending does nothing to help people seek out help or allow them to move forward with their lives if they've served their penance and taken genuine steps to stop their behaviour reoccurring. |
I agree with a lot of this, Swoop, but I think theres also something to be said for the way in which ones public morality can be a performance, or a mechanism to avoid scrutiny. The trouble with Weinstein was that this wasnt a one-time slip-up, but rather habitual behaviour for almost three decades that he clearly thought he could get away with, and he used his position to get away with it and to silence his victims. Im all about providing services for people with sexual disorders or dysfunctional behaviours and we do need to do much better in that area but I find it unlikely that Weinstein would have ever availed himself of them. It took public outrage and the fact of actually being sacked for him to finally seek sex addiction counselling, and even then, for all we know, thats just another performance so that he can triumphantly return to his position a changed man once this has all blown over. |
A good post, but I still don't see why you should think that this kind of power is more representative of capitalism than it is of other forms of economic organisation. The treatment of women in the gulags was epic, depraved and sickening in ways that make Weinstein's "dark heart of capitalism" a metaphorical heart murmur. And no, that does not justify or extenuate what he did.
Capitalism does have real faults. It needs regulation and redistributive policies. It is still the bedrock that has underpinned liberty and positive social evolution for centuries, while more "humanitarian" alternatives to it have institutionalised immiseration, lies and oppression.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| watt price tully wrote: | more accurate way of saying it would not be equal measure but power is a necessary but not sufficent factor to explain rape. Does the same apply to sexual desire?
Then we need to define the term sex |
I think sexual desire would have to be operative in more rape cases than the desire for power lets not forget that rape is not just cases of people being attacked or overpowered but also cases where the victim gives consent to one thing but not another, or is passed out drunk and targeted by an opportunist, or is under the age of consent but otherwise willing (in statutory rape cases). Some men delude themselves into thinking the victim is into it when they arent. The desire for sex is a powerful urge and the fact is that some men sometimes lack the sufficient empathy or self-control to ensure that consent has been given. Of course some rape cases are more about getting off on someone elses submission, but theres a spectrum here and I dont think we can say its all about A and not B.
Heres another interesting point in all of this:
https://amp.ft.com/content/1b665952-af3f-11e7-aab9-abaa44b1e130
| Quote: | | It is surely no coincidence that insiders flushed out Weinstein, now 65, as his award-winning streak began to ebb. The release of the beleaguered Tulip Fever was delayed, and this years Oscar hope Wind River met a lukewarm response. The Weinstein Company made almost 50 people redundant and lost senior executives recently. As Zack Stentz, the screenwriter of Thor and X-Men: First Class, noted on Twitter: Well know Hollywood culture has changed when a predator at the height of his power is taken down, not just someone already in decline. |
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Swoop makes a good point though. it's easy to try to fit people into boxes or labels, but people are complex and often contradictory.
Power can be relative. Like Mugwump I've worked with women who knew how to use their "sex appeal" to their advantage and could utterly disempower the average bloke with a look. (It goes without saying I've also seen plenty of women unable to deal or compete with these types of women and men)
The argument that this is a product of capitalism is so ridiculous it's funny. Power is relative. If you have something that others want, you have power. You can have power based on looks, wealth, position/role, abilities or possessions to make a non-exclusive list. |
It's interesting that a thread about Weinstein and his abuse of power regarding sexual abuse including rape becomes a discussion about women as sexual predators. The discussion here has mostly been conducted by men. |
.....Your problem would be what? |
Dr Freud, Dr Melanie Klein and Dr Jung would all need to write PhD theses to get to the bottom of that. |
You and me both.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | more accurate way of saying it would not be equal measure but power is a necessary but not sufficent factor to explain rape. Does the same apply to sexual desire?
Then we need to define the term sex |
I think sexual desire would have to be operative in more rape cases than the desire for power lets not forget that rape is not just cases of people being attacked or overpowered but also cases where the victim gives consent to one thing but not another, or is passed out drunk and targeted by an opportunist, or is under the age of consent but otherwise willing (in statutory rape cases). Some men delude themselves into thinking the victim is into it when they arent. The desire for sex is a powerful urge and the fact is that some men sometimes lack the sufficient empathy or self-control to ensure that consent has been given. Of course some rape cases are more about getting off on someone elses submission, but theres a spectrum here and I dont think we can say its all about A and not B.
Heres another interesting point in all of this:
https://amp.ft.com/content/1b665952-af3f-11e7-aab9-abaa44b1e130
| Quote: | | It is surely no coincidence that insiders flushed out Weinstein, now 65, as his award-winning streak began to ebb. The release of the beleaguered Tulip Fever was delayed, and this years Oscar hope Wind River met a lukewarm response. The Weinstein Company made almost 50 people redundant and lost senior executives recently. As Zack Stentz, the screenwriter of Thor and X-Men: First Class, noted on Twitter: Well know Hollywood culture has changed when a predator at the height of his power is taken down, not just someone already in decline. |
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Interesting on both counts. I think nearly everyone without a particular agenda would agree that rape can be about power, and/ or it can be about sexual lust and self-control ; and most commonly it is some mixture of both. The problem with the feminist formulation is that it oversimplifies the question into the slogan "rape is about power not sex". That is because Susan Brownmiller and the many pitchfork- waving feminists of the late 1970s and 1980s wanted to pathologise masculinity, to enhance their own power.
The point re Weinstein's corporate troubles and his current "outing" is probably very true. Success is its own prophylaxis.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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