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The silence over Harvey Weinsteinís serial abuse

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Skids Cancer



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 ... aka Assassin member #175

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:34 pm
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David wrote:
I donít think human sexuality is anywhere near that simple or straightforward.

The real question is, how long until Donald Trump gets brought down by all this? We have ample evidence to suggest that heís one of these guys. Or does the presidency offer absolute protection? (Bill Clintonís ability to sidestep the many allegations against him would suggest that it does.)


Straws.... clutching much Laughing

It must be Trumps fault I didn't collect on the Cup this year Laughing

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:56 pm
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I donít think human sexuality is anywhere near that simple or straightforward.

The real question is, how long until Donald Trump gets brought down by all this? We have ample evidence to suggest that heís one of these guys. Or does the presidency offer absolute protection? (Bill Clintonís ability to sidestep the many allegations against him would suggest that it does.)


so you think random females should just allow a male to whip it out and wank it off in front of them because, "'Obviously has/had some weird sexual peccadilloes and couldnít find a better outlet for them."'
(ive said previously on here when i was about 21-22 i was waiting for my horses to finish their dinner, snoozing in my car, and woke up to a guy approaching my car dick in hand, i planted it, and then backed back into him, no regrets, never saw him again, but every time i went to the paddock afterwards, at least once a day, it played on my mind. i found new agistment for my horses not long after that.i should not have had to feel that way. its assault, anyway you look at it. him, not me, i acted in self defense!!)

like i said, he can get therapy for that on many a street corner for - well im not sure how much the going rate is!!


As for your "'real question"' maybe wait until a court finds President Trump guilty, or at the very least some video with audio comes to light to prove it! or do only pedophiles and rapists with weird predilections get your sympathy? When Trump does fall, i hope its for the right reason, ie a political one. And then there is those sleaze ball art film directors, they get sympathy because......


Yes, I can imagine that the guy approaching your car with his hands full crept you out. It is a pity that women have to put up with that kind of crap anywhere, but there are laws against that (indecent exposure in that case, I think), and it's not actually assault unless he harms you physically. One of the many troubling things about the post-Weinstein fever is the way "sexual assault" is now used to cover things that range from indecent exposure, to improper suggestions, to even slight unwanted contact (the infamous hand on the knee of a journalist fifteen years ago which led to the downfall, last week, of a UK Cabinet Minister).

In the case of the women comedians and this CK person (of whom I know nothing but the article David referenced), it seems a bit odd, to me, that you hang out with someone whose work involves long riffs on masturbation, and then consider him a sex pest when he asks if he can have your consent to do it in front of you.

Real assault against a woman's will is rightly a serious criminal offence. Repeated unwanted advances in a work setting is sexual harassment under various workplace codes. However, outside and around that, that there are many shades of grey and subtle contexts in human interaction, and the twitter-mob, pillorying and destroying the livelihood of men who seem to have broken no law, let alone been fairly convicted, is unjust. It all smacks of the Crucible.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:33 pm
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He was reaching for the car door handle with the other hand. I wish Iíd hit him harder. My hope is that he didnít try is on anyone else since I didnít report it. That would be on me. I was that worried I moved my horses to another suburb.

Do you have any idea how disturbing to your mental health continual sexual harassment can be? The majority of women feel vulnerable at least some time in their life. There is no grey, there are levels of course, but who decides where those levels are for each person? I posted earlier in this thread the replies of various women, have a read and then ask your daughters the same question.

How about keeping you little habits, predilections, desires to your self unless invited to do otherwise? Nothing like a bit of self control and respecting other peoples personal space.

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swoop42 Virgo



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:55 pm
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David wrote:
Yet another one bites the dust...

https://nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html

I feel bad for all of the women who had to be subjected to such a weird experience, but I also kind of feel sorry for him. Obviously has/had some weird sexual peccadilloes and couldnít find a better outlet for them.


I had already read allegations about Louis prior to this over the years.

Still I will declare I'm a fan of his work and genuinely believe he's one of the best comedians alive today.

While I'm not looking to make excuses for his behaviour some of these allegations date back to 2002 I believe (not sure what the most recent one is) and well before his career really took off with a wider audience with the launch of his television show in 2010.

Is he a changed man now or still a perpetrator?

I must admit I find it somewhat puzzling that anyone who feels strongly aggrieved by the actions of another that would be considered against the law don't go to the police with their claims at the time.

People like to talk about the power imbalance that may exist but CK was hardly a household name in 2002 and these women simply decided the crime wasn't as important as overlooking it in favour of their career prospects.

Does that make his actions acceptable?

Well no but it's also not a decision on their part that displays a lot of backbone either and by not doing anything they've only encouraged his unhealthy alleged behaviour to continue.

Personally I believe we are letting women (and some men) off the hook a little to lightly in blaming a power imbalance as the only reason why incidents of sexual harassment/assault aren't reported as clearly in some incidents the women see a possible selfish career advantage as the payoff for putting up with unwanted behaviour (one of Louis accusers) or they don't report the incident.

Now that doesn't make the behaviour acceptable but it sure as hell helps it prosper and in the age of equality it's about time women started to respect themselves and speak out because not only will bad behaviour by men be encouraged to continue if they don't the minority of women prepared to use their sexuality to advantage will benefit over the majority of their contemporaries who aren't.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:55 pm
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^ yes, I think I do have a good idea of how disturbing it can be. I do not think you have to experience something to imagine or understand it. And in the case of your car incident, I reckon you did the right thing and he got what he deserved. But there are grades of crime for a reason, and this was not assault. I completely understand that it was unpleasant (especially given the new info about the car door) and I hope you belted him good and hard, and that he ended up with a jail term somewhere. But thatís not the point I was trying to make.

I worked in corporate life for thirty five years, and looked after HR, inter alia, for much of that time. Iíve seen some egregious things, and Iíve had zero tolerance for them when it was mine to judge. But I also saw lots of cases where the truth was complicated and obscure, and very hard to judge in black and white terms. Youíre right that I want workplace rules and laws to protect my daughter, and other peopleís daughters, from these types of creep. But there are some creepy and deranged women, too, and I also want laws and fairness and standards of proof that protect my son from them as well. Today, I think he might be more at risk if he makes a clumsy pass, than my daughter is. She can make a clumsy pass and I doubt itíd cause a ripple.

The search for absolute perfection through rules is very often the enemy of freedom and goodwill. We should be wary of allowing that to happen because of a few cretins of either gender.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:02 pm
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I donít think human sexuality is anywhere near that simple or straightforward.


so you think random females should just allow a male to whip it out and wank it off in front of them because, "'Obviously has/had some weird sexual peccadilloes and couldnít find a better outlet for them."'

[...]

like i said, he can get therapy for that on many a street corner for - well im not sure how much the going rate is!!


Wait, youíve seriously misread my point. Of course Iím not saying that anyone should tolerate such behaviour or that it should be excused. Iím pointing out that the reasons it occurs are complex and that such urges canít necessarily be satisfied by, say, visiting a sex worker Ė theyíre likely deeper than that, and probably require more serious intervention (like, say, actual therapy). Weíre not going to get very far if you interpret an attempt to sympathise or understand motive as excusing or even justifying sexual harassment.

think positive wrote:
As for your "'real question"' maybe wait until a court finds President Trump guilty, or at the very least some video with audio comes to light to prove it! or do only pedophiles and rapists with weird predilections get your sympathy? When Trump does fall, i hope its for the right reason, ie a political one. And then there is those sleaze ball art film directors, they get sympathy because......


But thatís the point Ė none of Weinstein, Spacey, Louis C.K. or any of the other names raised in recent weeks have been found guilty in a court of law either. All we have in each case is a large number of reports from unrelated people suggesting a pattern of behaviour. Trump is no different; he received heaps of accusations against him of forced kissing, sexual intimidation and the like, and we have some of his own words on tape suggesting that this sort of behaviour was his modus operandii. Iím a huge believer in the presumption of innocence, but I have to say itíd be a big call to say that someone like Weinstein deserves the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, we should consider such questions seriously Ė I wrote this re: Spacey, for instance:

https://medium.com/@Furbicide/the-ethics-of-uncertainty-11257a30aad8

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:05 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
David wrote:
Yet another one bites the dust...

https://nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html

I feel bad for all of the women who had to be subjected to such a weird experience, but I also kind of feel sorry for him. Obviously has/had some weird sexual peccadilloes and couldnít find a better outlet for them.


I had already read allegations about Louis prior to this over the years.

Still I will declare I'm a fan of his work and genuinely believe he's one of the best comedians alive today.

While I'm not looking to make excuses for his behaviour some of these allegations date back to 2002 I believe (not sure what the most recent one is) and well before his career really took off with a wider audience with the launch of his television show in 2010.

Is he a changed man now or still a perpetrator?

I must admit I find it somewhat puzzling that anyone who feels strongly aggrieved by the actions of another that would be considered against the law don't go to the police with their claims at the time.

People like to talk about the power imbalance that may exist but CK was hardly a household name in 2002 and these women simply decided the crime wasn't as important as overlooking it in favour of their career prospects.

Does that make his actions acceptable?

Well no but it's also not a decision on their part that displays a lot of backbone either and by not doing anything they've only encouraged his unhealthy alleged behaviour to continue.

Personally I believe we are letting women (and some men) off the hook a little to lightly in blaming a power imbalance as the only reason why incidents of sexual harassment/assault aren't reported as clearly in some incidents the women see a possible selfish career advantage as the payoff for putting up with unwanted behaviour (one of Louis accusers) or they don't report the incident.

Now that doesn't make the behaviour acceptable but it sure as hell helps it prosper and in the age of equality it's about time women started to respect themselves and speak out because not only will bad behaviour by men be encouraged to continue if they don't the minority of women prepared to use their sexuality to advantage will benefit over the majority of their contemporaries who aren't.


Ha, they are speaking out because someone else was brave enough to go first. Back then no one cared. Sexual harassment was not considered a crime back when as it is now. And the. There is the success rate in court. Or lack of it. And then there is the demeaning process the victim, male or female has to go through.

What exactly is this encouragement of bad behaviour by men you speak of?

How about instead of talking to our daughters about how to avoid unwanted attention, we speak to our sons about respecting the rights of others. How about we talk to all our children about the rights of others? Keep your hands, and other appendages, and your foul mouth to yourself! Itís not hard.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:08 pm
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David wrote:
think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I donít think human sexuality is anywhere near that simple or straightforward.


so you think random females should just allow a male to whip it out and wank it off in front of them because, "'Obviously has/had some weird sexual peccadilloes and couldnít find a better outlet for them."'

[...]

like i said, he can get therapy for that on many a street corner for - well im not sure how much the going rate is!!


Wait, youíve seriously misread my point. Of course Iím not saying that anyone should tolerate such behaviour or that it should be excused. Iím pointing out that the reasons it occurs are complex and that such urges canít necessarily be satisfied by, say, visiting a sex worker Ė theyíre likely deeper than that, and probably require more serious intervention (like, say, actual therapy). Weíre not going to get very far if you interpret an attempt to sympathise or understand motive as excusing or even justifying sexual harassment.

think positive wrote:
As for your "'real question"' maybe wait until a court finds President Trump guilty, or at the very least some video with audio comes to light to prove it! or do only pedophiles and rapists with weird predilections get your sympathy? When Trump does fall, i hope its for the right reason, ie a political one. And then there is those sleaze ball art film directors, they get sympathy because......


But thatís the point Ė none of Weinstein, Spacey, Louis C.K. or any of the other names raised in recent weeks have been found guilty in a court of law either. All we have in each case is a large number of reports from unrelated people suggesting a pattern of behaviour. Trump is no different; he received heaps of accusations against him of forced kissing, sexual intimidation and the like, and we have some of his own words on tape suggesting that this sort of behaviour was his modus operandii. Iím a huge believer in the presumption of innocence, but I have to say itíd be a big call to say that someone like Weinstein deserves the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, we should consider such questions seriously Ė I wrote this re: Spacey, for instance:

https://medium.com/@Furbicide/the-ethics-of-uncertainty-11257a30aad8


Fair enough. And I agree. I also noted on another post of yours, thereís is far too much guilty until proven innocent going on. Youíd think at least one is innocent, but that wonít matter, because you canít remove the dirt with a retraction.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:48 am
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This is how to do a public apology properly, at least:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ditzkoff/status/929050106246115329/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pedestrian.tv%2Fnews%2Flouis-ck-admits-harassment-statment%2F

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:42 am
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Yes it sure is, I love that fact that there is not one Ďifí or Ďbutí in there, he takes full responsibility. Hopefully he sees it through.
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stui magpie 

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:42 pm
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It is a good apology IMO, and it touches on a subject I've raised before, looking at the past through the lens of the present.

he says he didn't think he was doing anything wrong AT THE TIME, but now he understands.

Fair enough, provided the incidents all happened some time ago. If there's a pattern leading forward to the present day, his excuse falls over.

Pretty much anyone over 40 would have said or done things in their past that seen through the lens of present day would be inappropriate or offensive.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:41 am
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Yeah nah, thatís too easy. This all goes beyond a bad pick up line or cat call.

And now, here it comes, I knew it would happen, the star of one of my three favourite action movies of all time is, well, Under Siege!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/11/08/portia-de-rossi-says-steven-seagal-unzipped-his-pants-during-audition_a_23271433/?ncid=edlinkauhpmg00000003

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ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:54 pm
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I can only wonder at how many false allegations will be made against serial offenders or dead people. An agent says look you are not getting noticed and have no work. Make something up and grab some attention. Poor old Mr Sulu i(George Takei) who has been out for years is the latest accused and he is denying it. This is after all an industry based on make believe.

I also wonder how responsible all these frickin so called reality dating shows are. They are giving the gullible the impression that this is the way to go. Years ago on Blind Date they had a soldier on who the Army had been trying to court martial for sexual predatory behaviour but his mate was a barrister and he kept weaselling out. He won a trip to a Qld island with some chick and within 2 hours of being there had tried to move all his stuff into her room and the girl was in tears and demanded she be sent home to Melbourne. Channel 10 did nothing about it because it would have hurt ratings and the girl was presumably paid off and that show wasn't seen. It took the groping of a an Army Generals daughter at Monash University Regiment uniform fitting before the Army just posted the arsehole to a ammo dump in outback NSW with no female staff and he left the Army. That was after a farmer beat the shit out of him for groping his daughter at a local event.

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Wokko Pisces

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:16 am
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http://www.dailywire.com/news/23405/whoa-jeremy-piven-issues-fiery-response-sexual-amanda-prestigiacomo?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro#
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:41 am
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And here come the home grown ones:

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/11/28/05/28/olympian-susie-oneill-accuses-don-burke-of-crude-sexual-innuendo

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