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The silence over Harvey Weinstein’s serial abuse

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:20 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Saw an article I wont bother posting, the author was mad that he didn't go for black women so they were missing out on the roles that he was demanding sex for...

Yeah, that's enough internet for today I think.


Presuming that it was in earnest and not a troll piece, it's wrong in any case:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/lupita-nyongo-harvey-weinstein.html

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:09 am
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This piece by another of Weinstein's almost-victims elucidates the point I was trying to make in my original post:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/10/harvey-weinstein-and-the-economics-of-consent/543618/

Brit Marling wrote:
At this point many women have come forward to tell their stories about being harassed or abused by Weinstein. All of them are courageous, including the women who could not find a way out. I think for me, I was able to leave Weinstein’s hotel room that day because I had entered as an actor but also as a writer/creator. Of those dual personas in me—actor and writer—it was the writer who stood up and walked out. Because the writer knew that even if this very powerful man never gave her a job in any of his films, even if he blacklisted her from other films, she could make her own work on her own terms and thus keep a roof over her head.

I’m telling this story because in the heat surrounding these brave admissions, it’s important to think about the economics of consent. Weinstein was a gatekeeper who could give actresses a career that would sustain their lives and the livelihood of their families. He could also give them fame, which is one of few ways for women to gain some semblance of power and voice inside a patriarchal world. They knew it. He knew it. Weinstein could also ensure that these women would never work again if they humiliated him. That’s not just artistic or emotional exile—that’s also economic exile.

[...]

The real danger inside the present moment, then, would be for us all to separate the alleged deeds of Cosby, Ailes, O’Reilly, or Weinstein from a culture that continues to allow for dramatic imbalances of power. It’s not these bad men. Or that dirty industry. It’s this inhumane economic system of which we are all a part. As producers and as consumers. As storytellers and as listeners. As human beings. That’s a very uncomfortable truth to sit inside. But perhaps discomfort is what’s required to move in the direction of a humane world to which we would all freely give our consent.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:00 pm
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One wonders whether the writer really understands what a truly “inhumane” economic system looks like. Did she spend much time in Zimbabwe, Uganda, the GDR, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, North Korea ? If she has extensive experience of those, I may have to take her judgement at face value, but as a self-styled writer she might consider the meaning of words like “ inhumane” carefully.

To a Communist, everything looks like a hammer and a sickle. Weinstein appears to be a grub and a criminal, and he has been justly exposed and his company wrecked. The economic and legal system is very imperfect, but none of the truly inhumane economic systems history has known would have resulted in such a degringolade. Sexual harassment is creepy, ugly, and a poor justification for Communism. “Look at the state of the carpets !! I blame capitalism, meself....”

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:35 pm
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Mugwump, you must be the only person here who thinks "capitalism is inhumane" equals an endorsement of communism (or that the writer of that article would style herself as such)!
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Ballarat!

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:11 pm
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How is the voluntary exchange of goods and services "inhumane"? I would concede it is unequal, but that isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing.
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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:30 pm
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I reckon that makes 3 of us David.
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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:32 pm
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Wokko wrote:
How is the voluntary exchange of goods and services "inhumane"? I would concede it is unequal, but that isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing.

This is some new, special sense of "voluntary" that you are postulating.
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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:55 pm
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I can understand the presumption that 'capitalism is harmful' might be interpreted as 'all aspects of financial exchange are harmful' which might be interpreted in turn as 'the only viable system is one in which money and property do not exist'. But to me those are quite radical leaps.

Mugwump, Wokko and Stui, I'm sure you're familiar with the saying that 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others'. It's perfectly plausible to me that capitalism might be deeply, fundamentally harmful and the only possible way to run a functional modern society – which is why, as a non-revolutionary, I'm all for trying to make the system better, not overturn it (which is nearly impossible and probably quite unwise, in any case). So when I say 'capitalism' – and I'm sure this applies to Marling too – I mean 'capitalism as it currently is', particularly in the US where so much wealth is permitted to be accumulated in so few hands, creating such extreme power imbalances. And it's important to remember, too, that we do not live in purely capitalist societies; it could well be that the restraints and regulations we have placed on it have saved us from living in far crueller and more unequal societies. Indeed, I think it's pretty clear that that's the case.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:03 pm
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David wrote:
I can understand the presumption that 'capitalism is harmful' might be interpreted as 'all aspects of financial exchange are harmful' which might be interpreted in turn as 'the only viable system is one in which money and property do not exist'. But to me those are quite radical leaps.

Mugwump, Wokko and Stui, I'm sure you're familiar with the saying that 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others'. It's perfectly plausible to me that capitalism might be deeply, fundamentally harmful and the only possible way to run a functional modern society – which is why, as a non-revolutionary, I'm all for trying to make the system better, not overturn it (which is nearly impossible and probably quite unwise, in any case). So when I say 'capitalism' – and I'm sure this applies to Marling too – I mean 'capitalism as it currently is', particularly in the US where so much wealth is permitted to be accumulated in so few hands, creating such extreme power imbalances. And it's important to remember, too, that we do not live in purely capitalist societies; it could well be that the restraints and regulations we have placed on it have saved us from living in far crueller and more unequal societies. Indeed, I think it's pretty clear that that's the case.


Sure, just as history destroyed central planning and exposed the cruel and false humanitarianism of Communism, I think it also showed that unfettered capitalism can be inhumane. Our economic system is not the capitalism of the industrial revolution, however, and nor is the economic system of the USA. They have minimum wage laws, universal free education to 18, anti-trust laws, a central banking system, free health-care for the over 65s, time-limited unemployment insurance and a state pension system. They also have anti-discrimination and sexual harassment laws, which they practically invented. The US is not the easiest place in the world to live if you are poor. It’s harder than Australia (though at least housing is relatively affordable there), but compared to (say) India, it’s pretty good.

Weinsteins have their opportunity whenever institutional power exists with the right to grant favor to some over others. That is surely endemic in any form of human organization yet imagined. The only defence against it is a free press and laws against sexual harassment, both of which have been characteristic of advanced capitalist societies. That “inhumane” (pfft) capitalist society, the USA, was in the avant-garde of adopting these.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:12 pm
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^

Agreed. Don't start me on India, I read some articles on CNN recently that would blow your mind. The wealth disparity there is ridiculous.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:43 pm
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yes, India pursued highly socialist policies for many years in the Indira Gandhi era (though she did start to reverse its disastrous effects late in her life). Few things create wealth disparity like wet-blanket socialism followed by rapid deregulation (Russia is the archetype).

Anyway, it’s just odd monomania to suggest that Weinstein is the result of this particular economic system, when this economic system has so clearly provided perhaps the best chance of criminalising, detecting and punishing his ilk.

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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:28 pm
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Quote:
YOUNG, inexperienced and desperate to impress, she peeled off her clothes and dropped to her knees.
The fashion legend behind the camera then stripped off himself before thrusting his groin into her face.
Photographer Terry Richardson was famed for going nude on his own shoots, such as the snap of him and Kate Moss.
But amid the Harvey Weinstein scandal and a torrent of accusations of sexual exploitation, the man said to be the fashion industry’s most depraved photographer was this week barred from working on some of its biggest magazines, including Vogue.
As one studio insider told The Sun: “He makes Harvey Weinstein look like Bambi.


http://www.news.com.au/news/photographer-terry-richardson-makes-harvey-weinstein-look-like-bambi-according-to-insider/news-story/44abeeb8a11f3c65dc31dcca67043ddb

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:41 pm
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^ I really don't know what the deal is with that guy. He's a crap photographer, as far as I can tell, who's famous for being famous, and all the celebrities flock to him for 'edgy' photoshoots. Beats me.
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:45 pm
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Me either.
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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:02 pm
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David wrote:
^ I really don't know what the deal is with that guy. He's a crap photographer, as far as I can tell, who's famous for being famous, and all the celebrities flock to him for 'edgy' photoshoots. Beats me.


famous for being famous and apparently infamous for sticking his dick in his models.

In a way I guess it proves my point that power is relative.

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