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The silence over Harvey Weinstein’s serial abuse

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Mountains Magpie 



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:50 am
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watt price tully wrote:
I think the argument about women not standing up Weinstein is not a good one as it detracts from the courage of the women who have.

The notion of offering sex is a side issue & really a distraction from the main game here: male abuse of power.


This is true IMHO but the women who have stood up to the likes of Weinstein in the past are the ones we've surely (mostly) never heard of.

MM

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:56 am
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stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Wokko wrote:
You could even say that the actresses who profited from the arrangement did so at the expense of more principled women who refused his advances. Fear and greed are powerful motivators.

As for it being because of capitalism; I'm sure there has never been sexual favours used or demanded in all the socialist utopias the world has seen. In this case it was for fame and fortune in those cases it's for bread or medicine.


It's also a racing certainty that some women very willingly and purposefully traded their sexuality to Weinstein for his favours. Reality is so much more complex than these cheap abstractions about "men" and "capitalism".


That's an interesting chicken -egg situation. Did he start out trying to coerce women or did he start out getting "offers" from ambitious wanna be actresses, liked it and decided to take the initiative from then on.

None of this justifies his actions btw


Doubtless some of both - in my own small way I've seen lots of women who were prepared to trade sex for material advancement, and of course many who would never think of it. A good man will resist it, some good men will fall for it, and a man with few principles will exploit it and revel in that power. It's a big wide wicked world out there, full of people behaving badly, and wel, and all shades in between, regardless of the categories imposed on them by Marxists.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:15 am
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Mugwump wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Wokko wrote:
You could even say that the actresses who profited from the arrangement did so at the expense of more principled women who refused his advances. Fear and greed are powerful motivators.

As for it being because of capitalism; I'm sure there has never been sexual favours used or demanded in all the socialist utopias the world has seen. In this case it was for fame and fortune in those cases it's for bread or medicine.


It's also a racing certainty that some women very willingly and purposefully traded their sexuality to Weinstein for his favours. Reality is so much more complex than these cheap abstractions about "men" and "capitalism".


That's an interesting chicken -egg situation. Did he start out trying to coerce women or did he start out getting "offers" from ambitious wanna be actresses, liked it and decided to take the initiative from then on.

None of this justifies his actions btw


Doubtless some of both - in my own small way I've seen lots of women who were prepared to trade sex for material advancement, and of course many who would never think of it. A good man will resist it, some good men will fall for it, and a man with few principles will exploit it and revel in that power. It's a big wide wicked world out there, full of people behaving badly, and wel, and all shades in between, regardless of the categories imposed on them by Marxists.


Really ?? Leave it alone Mugwump, it'll fall off.

The irony of course is the categoriztion you've applied .

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:29 pm
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An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:

http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true

Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of ‘progressive’ causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:05 pm
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David wrote:
An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:

http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true

Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of ‘progressive’ causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice.


To Assange his guilt?
Does a sociopath (if that's what he is) exprience guilt?
Or is like watching Penn & Teller; a misdirection by a conjuror.

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swoop42 Virgo

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Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:57 pm
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David wrote:
An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:

http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true

Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of ‘progressive’ causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice.


Or perhaps people are just complex.

It might blow the mind of some narrow minded people but it's entirely possible for people to display offensive behaviour in one area of their life and still have good morals for everything else.

For example you can be a sex offender but still love animals, be fiercely loyal to your family and generous to people less fortunate.

Personally I believe sexual desire for a lot of men is the most primal and powerful feeling they can ever achieve and it can drive some men do a lot of things they shouldn't in the moment of high arousal.

Speaking generally the problem is we focus so much on the one time someone messes up and not the 999 times they resist and the stigma surrounding sex offending does nothing to help people seek out help or allow them to move forward with their lives if they've served their penance and taken genuine steps to stop their behaviour reoccurring.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:22 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
David wrote:
An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:

http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true

Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of ‘progressive’ causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice.


Or perhaps people are just complex.

It might blow the mind of some narrow minded people but it's entirely possible for people to display offensive behaviour in one area of their life and still have good morals for everything else.

For example you can be a sex offender but still love animals, be fiercely loyal to your family and generous to people less fortunate.

Personally I believe sexual desire for a lot of men is the most primal and powerful feeling they can ever achieve and it can drive some men do a lot of things they shouldn't in the moment of high arousal.

Speaking generally the problem is we focus so much on the one time someone messes up and not the 999 times they resist and the stigma surrounding sex offending does nothing to help people seek out help or allow them to move forward with their lives if they've served their penance and taken genuine steps to stop their behaviour reoccurring.


If it happens once or twice you could call it "sexual desire" however when it has happended as part of his way of being so to speak then other forces are at work: namely but not limited to "power". Power here is not mutually exlusive from sexual drives - it still a drive but the extent and manner which this has occurred means that sexual desire is insufficient to explain this lump of lards behaviour.

Rape is not about sex. Rape is about power.

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swoop42 Virgo

The Flash


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:30 pm
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Not all sex offenders are rapists.

In fact most aren't and the motivations widely differ.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:32 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Wokko wrote:
You could even say that the actresses who profited from the arrangement did so at the expense of more principled women who refused his advances. Fear and greed are powerful motivators.

As for it being because of capitalism; I'm sure there has never been sexual favours used or demanded in all the socialist utopias the world has seen. In this case it was for fame and fortune in those cases it's for bread or medicine.


It's also a racing certainty that some women very willingly and purposefully traded their sexuality to Weinstein for his favours. Reality is so much more complex than these cheap abstractions about "men" and "capitalism".


That's an interesting chicken -egg situation. Did he start out trying to coerce women or did he start out getting "offers" from ambitious wanna be actresses, liked it and decided to take the initiative from then on.

None of this justifies his actions btw


Doubtless some of both - in my own small way I've seen lots of women who were prepared to trade sex for material advancement, and of course many who would never think of it. A good man will resist it, some good men will fall for it, and a man with few principles will exploit it and revel in that power. It's a big wide wicked world out there, full of people behaving badly, and wel, and all shades in between, regardless of the categories imposed on them by Marxists.


Really ?? Leave it alone Mugwump, it'll fall off.

The irony of course is the categoriztion you've applied .


Yawn. I haven't heard that level of argument since I was about 15 and frequented schoolyards a lot..

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:49 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
David wrote:
An interesting discussion on this issue with Waleed Aly on Radio National the other night:

http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pe9L2O97dD?play=true

Aly makes the point about Harvey Weinstein being a huge financial supporter of ‘progressive’ causes (including the Hillary Clinton campaign), and asks the question whether all of this Hollywood virtue-signalling can be used as a cover for personal vice.


Or perhaps people are just complex.

It might blow the mind of some narrow minded people but it's entirely possible for people to display offensive behaviour in one area of their life and still have good morals for everything else.

For example you can be a sex offender but still love animals, be fiercely loyal to your family and generous to people less fortunate.

Personally I believe sexual desire for a lot of men is the most primal and powerful feeling they can ever achieve and it can drive some men do a lot of things they shouldn't in the moment of high arousal.

Speaking generally the problem is we focus so much on the one time someone messes up and not the 999 times they resist and the stigma surrounding sex offending does nothing to help people seek out help or allow them to move forward with their lives if they've served their penance and taken genuine steps to stop their behaviour reoccurring.


True, Swoop, but the real measure of a person is not their opinions, but their personal conduct when their interests are involved. Our age has mostly lost sight of that essential truth. Being a liberal makes a person no less likely to be a nasty piece of work.

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:11 pm
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Swoop makes a good point though. it's easy to try to fit people into boxes or labels, but people are complex and often contradictory.

Power can be relative. Like Mugwump I've worked with women who knew how to use their "sex appeal" to their advantage and could utterly disempower the average bloke with a look. (It goes without saying I've also seen plenty of women unable to deal or compete with these types of women and men)

The argument that this is a product of capitalism is so ridiculous it's funny. Power is relative. If you have something that others want, you have power. You can have power based on looks, wealth, position/role, abilities or possessions to make a non-exclusive list.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:14 pm
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But I don't have it.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:51 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Wokko wrote:
You could even say that the actresses who profited from the arrangement did so at the expense of more principled women who refused his advances. Fear and greed are powerful motivators.

As for it being because of capitalism; I'm sure there has never been sexual favours used or demanded in all the socialist utopias the world has seen. In this case it was for fame and fortune in those cases it's for bread or medicine.


It's also a racing certainty that some women very willingly and purposefully traded their sexuality to Weinstein for his favours. Reality is so much more complex than these cheap abstractions about "men" and "capitalism".


That's an interesting chicken -egg situation. Did he start out trying to coerce women or did he start out getting "offers" from ambitious wanna be actresses, liked it and decided to take the initiative from then on.

None of this justifies his actions btw


Doubtless some of both - in my own small way I've seen lots of women who were prepared to trade sex for material advancement, and of course many who would never think of it. A good man will resist it, some good men will fall for it, and a man with few principles will exploit it and revel in that power. It's a big wide wicked world out there, full of people behaving badly, and wel, and all shades in between, regardless of the categories imposed on them by Marxists.


Really ?? Leave it alone Mugwump, it'll fall off.

The irony of course is the categoriztion you've applied .


Yawn. I haven't heard that level of argument since I was about 15 and frequented schoolyards a lot..


Yawn indeed Mugwump.

The continual rant about Marxist this and 60's that is quite childlike when you're attributing categories to the "other". Repitition that is repitition is not a substitute for discussion. The simple attribution of blame to one side of a presumably multi-faceted issue is not particularly convincing for a bright fellow like yourself.

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Last edited by watt price tully on Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:54 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Swoop makes a good point though. it's easy to try to fit people into boxes or labels, but people are complex and often contradictory.

Power can be relative. Like Mugwump I've worked with women who knew how to use their "sex appeal" to their advantage and could utterly disempower the average bloke with a look. (It goes without saying I've also seen plenty of women unable to deal or compete with these types of women and men)

The argument that this is a product of capitalism is so ridiculous it's funny. Power is relative. If you have something that others want, you have power. You can have power based on looks, wealth, position/role, abilities or possessions to make a non-exclusive list.


It's interesting that a thread about Weinstein and his abuse of power regarding sexual abuse including rape becomes a discussion about women as sexual predators. The discussion here has mostly been conducted by men.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:45 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Wokko wrote:
You could even say that the actresses who profited from the arrangement did so at the expense of more principled women who refused his advances. Fear and greed are powerful motivators.

As for it being because of capitalism; I'm sure there has never been sexual favours used or demanded in all the socialist utopias the world has seen. In this case it was for fame and fortune in those cases it's for bread or medicine.


It's also a racing certainty that some women very willingly and purposefully traded their sexuality to Weinstein for his favours. Reality is so much more complex than these cheap abstractions about "men" and "capitalism".


That's an interesting chicken -egg situation. Did he start out trying to coerce women or did he start out getting "offers" from ambitious wanna be actresses, liked it and decided to take the initiative from then on.

None of this justifies his actions btw


Doubtless some of both - in my own small way I've seen lots of women who were prepared to trade sex for material advancement, and of course many who would never think of it. A good man will resist it, some good men will fall for it, and a man with few principles will exploit it and revel in that power. It's a big wide wicked world out there, full of people behaving badly, and wel, and all shades in between, regardless of the categories imposed on them by Marxists.


Really ?? Leave it alone Mugwump, it'll fall off.

The irony of course is the categoriztion you've applied .


Yawn. I haven't heard that level of argument since I was about 15 and frequented schoolyards a lot..


Yawn indeed Mugwump.

The continual rant about Marxist this and 60's that is quite childlike when you're attributing categories to the "other". Repitition that is repitition is not a substitute for discussion. The simple attribution of blame to one side of a presumably multi-faceted issue is not particularly convincing for a bright fellow like yourself.


The presenting point in this thread was David seeing this as "the dark heart of capitalism". If you cannot see the Marxist import of that phrase, then so be it. But I did not raise the topic, I simply pointed out that it's more than a bit odd.

If your own views are not Marxist, despite your public approbation on here of (inter alia) Albert Langer, Stuart Hall, Slavoj Zizek - all figures who have publicly Identified themselves with the Marxist tradition- then perhaps you could clarify. It is odd to have intellectual heroes who are of a different faith.

As for the "get your hand off it" stuff, well, you are a bit better than that, most days.

Finally, you might want to define the word "rant". It usually means something quite different to "opinions with which I disagree".

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Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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