Las Vegas shooting
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I think youve misread his post hes talking about something completely different, i.e. police using entrapment to arrest terror suspects. See the link he posted. Nothing to do with the Las Vegas shooting.
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Mugwump wrote: |
Thanks K. I am sure these drugs have been subjected to clinical trials, but on the scale that such trials are performed, they may well fail to pick up the (say) one in five thousand who may have this type of extreme reaction and who might pick up a gun if guns are widely available. Yet the side effects packaged with the medications list rage and aggression as a side effect. The question becomes "is the benefit to many worth the cost from a few ?".
I am sure it is not just SSRIs and other drugs, even if they are a key factor, but culture plays a role as well. The hyper-individualism of American life puts terrible pressure on some people. |
Do you watch the BBC's Panorama, Mugwump? An episode entitled "Prescription for murder?" aired recently (August) and is viewable in your parts on the BBC's iPlayer. If you've watched it or watch it in the future, do share your impressions of it with us. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I
I read it more as a conspiracy theory. Same principle as anti virus software companies creating viruses to keep themselves in business, the FBI are (allegedly according to Assange) creating terrorist events so they can be the hero.
It's like Munchausen by proxy in an organisation.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I read it as such too, but then I read the link attached to his tweet and realised that he's just referring to something that police have been doing for ages basically goading people into being about to commit crimes (say, posing as a 14 year old girl on a chatroom and trying to crack onto older men) and then arresting them when they turn up. It doesn't surprise me at all to hear that they've been doing this with people on terror watchlists.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/fbi-is-manufacturing-terrorism-cases-2016-6?r=US&IR=T
But yes, I don't think any serious person would suggest that they'd go as far as to fake a mass shooting. That's Alex Joneslevel moonbattery.
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Last edited by David on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Um goading them? It sounds like you think it's entrapment when the truth is the old bastards are usually looking for young things, and the cops are potentially saving a rape or murder victim,
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The situations vary, but I've read of plenty of cases of (sometimes quite young) men with no prior record being arrested and getting jail time, and plenty of people in the legal profession have raised concerns over these tactics. Entrapment is tricky ethical territory, and it's illegal in many jurisdictions for good reason.
I'm sure you're familiar with the US show To Catch a Predator; this was pretty much their modus operandi! Set people up and then arrest them. You can argue the toss on how effective or appropriate it is (some people would agree that it stops potential offenders from causing real-life harm down the track), and sometimes it can be an effective technique for catching serious criminals, but it's an ethically murky approach and it can be very easy for police to overstep the mark and ruin someone's life for no reason.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/us/fbi-isis-terrorism-stings.html
| Quote: | Court records and interviews give a glimpse of the aggressive undercover methods that have become typical in investigations once the F.B.I. identifies someone as a possible threat.
In Rochester, a paid informant went undercover and drove a man suspected of being an Islamic extremist, Emanuel Lutchman, to a Walmart in December to buy a machete, ski masks, zip ties and other supplies for a would-be terrorist attack on New Years Eve. Because Mr. Lutchman, a mentally ill panhandler, had no money, the informant covered the $40 cost.
In North Carolina, an undercover agent pressed another suspect, Justin Sullivan, on whether he was willing to commit acts of terrorism for the Islamic State do you think you can kill? the agent asked in one online message before giving him a silencer for an AR-15 assault rifle in June 2015.
And in Washington State, an undercover informant paid $1,100 to Daniel Franey, a former soldier, for acting as a lookout on several trips to buy duffel bags filled with assault weapons for a possible attack last summer. |
Another link suggested that over two-thirds of terror suspects have been caught through methods like these. Perhaps some serious attacks have been averted through use of such methods, but when police are actively aiding and abetting them and goading them into planning attacks, the line between prevention and a manufactured crime becomes increasingly grey.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| K wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: |
Thanks K. I am sure these drugs have been subjected to clinical trials, but on the scale that such trials are performed, they may well fail to pick up the (say) one in five thousand who may have this type of extreme reaction and who might pick up a gun if guns are widely available. Yet the side effects packaged with the medications list rage and aggression as a side effect. The question becomes "is the benefit to many worth the cost from a few ?".
I am sure it is not just SSRIs and other drugs, even if they are a key factor, but culture plays a role as well. The hyper-individualism of American life puts terrible pressure on some people. |
Do you watch the BBC's Panorama, Mugwump? An episode entitled "Prescription for murder?" aired recently (August) and is viewable in your parts on the BBC's iPlayer. If you've watched it or watch it in the future, do share your impressions of it with us. |
When I can, as it is usually great investigative journalism, but I missed that one, K. I'll pick it up on iPlayer, and thanks for the lead.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | The situations vary, but I've read of plenty of cases of (sometimes quite young) men with no prior record being arrested and getting jail time, and plenty of people in the legal profession have raised concerns over these tactics. Entrapment is tricky ethical territory, and it's illegal in many jurisdictions for good reason.
I'm sure you're familiar with the US show To Catch a Predator; this was pretty much their modus operandi! Set people up and then arrest them. You can argue the toss on how effective or appropriate it is (some people would agree that it stops potential offenders from causing real-life harm down the track), and sometimes it can be an effective technique for catching serious criminals, but it's an ethically murky approach and it can be very easy for police to overstep the mark and ruin someone's life for no reason.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/us/fbi-isis-terrorism-stings.html
| Quote: | Court records and interviews give a glimpse of the aggressive undercover methods that have become typical in investigations once the F.B.I. identifies someone as a possible threat.
In Rochester, a paid informant went undercover and drove a man suspected of being an Islamic extremist, Emanuel Lutchman, to a Walmart in December to buy a machete, ski masks, zip ties and other supplies for a would-be terrorist attack on New Years Eve. Because Mr. Lutchman, a mentally ill panhandler, had no money, the informant covered the $40 cost.
In North Carolina, an undercover agent pressed another suspect, Justin Sullivan, on whether he was willing to commit acts of terrorism for the Islamic State do you think you can kill? the agent asked in one online message before giving him a silencer for an AR-15 assault rifle in June 2015.
And in Washington State, an undercover informant paid $1,100 to Daniel Franey, a former soldier, for acting as a lookout on several trips to buy duffel bags filled with assault weapons for a possible attack last summer. |
Another link suggested that over two-thirds of terror suspects have been caught through methods like these. Perhaps some serious attacks have been averted through use of such methods, but when police are actively aiding and abetting them and goading them into planning attacks, the line between prevention and a manufactured crime becomes increasingly grey. |
It's a tricky area, but I think the principle is that once you cross the line into action, you are liable for those actions, even if they were brought about by another's inducement. Now clearly there are limits - badgering someone to commit a crime for which they have shown no propensity is out of bounds, but merely facilitating the commission of a crime by someone who expresses a desire to do so seems reasonable to me. It also has the positive side effect of sowing deep doubts in the mind of those who would enter into conspiracy - when they cease to trust one another, the force of law is multiplied.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| think positive wrote: |
And Obamas still rocks! Obama tried, he pushed for gun control. |
Obama rocks, please, open your eyes Joanne, he was and is a race baiting creature whose presidency did nothing but descend America into the mess it is today. The only impact he had on gun control was the legalization of bump stuck guns, enabling semi automatics to function as full automatics, which by the way, the NRA spoke out against at the time.
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | | think positive wrote: |
And Obamas still rocks! Obama tried, he pushed for gun control. |
Obama rocks, please, open your eyes Joanne, he was and is a race baiting creature whose presidency did nothing but descend America into the mess it is today. The only impact he had on gun control was the legalization of bump stuck guns, enabling semi automatics to function as full automatics, which by the way, the NRA spoke out against at the time. |
So Obama is responsible for the mess in the USA now. I needed a good laugh.
The mess the US is in now is in large part due to the nutter reaction to Obama.
TP put it 100% right when she staed as you quoted "Obama tried, he pushed for gun control". However the NRA & the abuse of the right to bear arms mentality stopped gun control.
Then again the mess the US is in leads some people to believe he's muslim.
Go figure.
How's that birth certificate going?
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Posts like that exist in such a mirror world that it seems almost impossible to know where to start.
The sub-prime mortgage crisis, and the societal upheaval that it has caused? Obama's fault.
The rampant gun culture, and constant NRA/Republican stonewalling of any regulations that could have helped curtail it, that have led to massacres like this one? Obama's fault.
Racial tensions, the re-emergence of white supremacism as a political force, fighting in the streets? Obama's fault.
Trillions of dollars wasted on ongoing, unresolved conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq? Obama's fault.
I mean, really. Where do you even start?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oh I see. For real. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| stui magpie wrote: | The argument for gun control is strong. Look at Australia as a case study. Since guns were more tightly controlled, no mass shootings.
Now that fuitcake with the commodore mad a mess in the bourke st mall, but as I said earlier people will find a wy. How much worse could that have been if he's had easy access to guns? |
This is another bullshit story the media would like us to believe.
There was a shooting here in Perth last night, not a 'mass shooting' (that's where 4 or more people are injured), but another shooting none the less.
The last 'mass shooting' in Australia was - The lindt cafe incident in December 2014, 7 people were shot. 3 killed & 4 injured.
The previous 'mass shooting' was - The Hunt family murders in September 2014 - 5 people shot & killed.
Prior to that, Monash University, October 2002 - 7 people shot, 2 of which died.
There have been countless other shootings throughout the country.
All this in a country with strict gun ownership rules..... ah, the fake news.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ That's three 'mass shootings' (in which the total injured and dead were still in single figures) in twenty years. If only the US had such a problem on its hands...
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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That's not the point David.
The media feed us the line that there's been NO mass shoitings since the gun amnesty which is simply untrue.
The US also has 15 times our pooulation. In the last 30 years, the US has had 78 mass shootings, Australia has had 5. Proportionately
almost identical.
The US had 78 mass shootings during that 30-year period.
The highest number of mass shootings experienced outside the United States was in Germany where seven shootings occurred.
In the other 24 industrialised countries taken together, 41 mass shootings took place
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-03/las-vegas-six-things-to-know-about-mass-shootings-in-america/9011096?pfmredir=sm
There's a shooting of some sort at least weekly in Australia..... so just how much safer did the gun buy back make us?
I'd suggest very little difference and a waste of resources.
If someone wants a gun, they can get one. I could have a Glock or shotgun in my hands this afternoon if I wanted, actually, before lunch.
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Don't count the days, make the days count.
Last edited by Skids on Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:28 am; edited 2 times in total |
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