 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
...
_________________
βThe greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.β
Last edited by Morrigu on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
 |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | | As usual, I think, I am prepared to see potential fault on both sides and clearly some actions by the police in that footage warrant investigation - but all you seem to see, and imagine, is police brutality. I think your critical faculties, usually fairly acute, may be hijacked by ideology. |
I don't quite see how I certainly don't necessarily support nationalist/secessionist movements as a rule (it's one issue I'm often on the fence on), and I have no particular love for the centre-right Catalan independence movement. I just view the police reaction here as shocking and, as far as I can tell, uncalled for. You can condemn the violence of protesters to whatever extent unarmed people can manage to land any blows against men in full riot gear but, again, this was not a response to existing violent unrest but rather a physical conflict that the state (in the view of the government, successfully) planned and enacted. So apportioning blame to each side, particularly given the extremely disparate injury count, seems to be missing the point somewhat.
You may feel you're being even-handed, but to me it reads as if you've been far too quick to offer apologia for the police. Perhaps I have been too ready to side with the people being beaten with batons. We all have our biases.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| The police had no function to perform. They should not have been present. Everything follows from that - as to the horror of which, see Morrigu's post, above. |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| All things follows from that - as to the horror of which see Morrigu's post ? |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | As usual, I think, I am prepared to see potential fault on both sides and clearly some actions by the police in that footage warrant investigation - but all you seem to see, and imagine, is police brutality. I think your critical faculties, usually fairly acute, may be hijacked by ideology. |
I don't quite see how I certainly don't necessarily support nationalist/secessionist movements as a rule (it's one issue I'm often on the fence on), and I have no particular love for the centre-right Catalan independence movement. I just view the police reaction here as shocking and, as far as I can tell, uncalled for. You can condemn the violence of protesters to whatever extent unarmed people can manage to land any blows against men in full riot gear but, again, this was not a response to existing violent unrest but rather a physical conflict that the state (in the view of the government, successfully) planned and enacted. So apportioning blame to each side, particularly given the extremely disparate injury count, seems to be missing the point somewhat.
You may feel you're being even-handed, but to me it reads as if you've been far too quick to offer apologia for the police. Perhaps I have been too ready to side with the people being beaten with batons. We all have our biases. |
And one of your consistent and enduring biases is that you're anti authoritarian. You will always side against the Police, armed services and anyone else in authority (employers) unless there's irrefutable evidence that they were in the right, and even then you're suspicious.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: | |
|
..
_________________
βThe greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.β
Last edited by Morrigu on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^
he may well be, I have NFI about what's happening. Just pointing out David's consistent bias.
Even a stopped clock................ 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | As usual, I think, I am prepared to see potential fault on both sides and clearly some actions by the police in that footage warrant investigation - but all you seem to see, and imagine, is police brutality. I think your critical faculties, usually fairly acute, may be hijacked by ideology. |
I don't quite see how I certainly don't necessarily support nationalist/secessionist movements as a rule (it's one issue I'm often on the fence on), and I have no particular love for the centre-right Catalan independence movement. I just view the police reaction here as shocking and, as far as I can tell, uncalled for. You can condemn the violence of protesters to whatever extent unarmed people can manage to land any blows against men in full riot gear but, again, this was not a response to existing violent unrest but rather a physical conflict that the state (in the view of the government, successfully) planned and enacted. So apportioning blame to each side, particularly given the extremely disparate injury count, seems to be missing the point somewhat.
You may feel you're being even-handed, but to me it reads as if you've been far too quick to offer apologia for the police. Perhaps I have been too ready to side with the people being beaten with batons. We all have our biases. |
And one of your consistent and enduring biases is that you're anti authoritarian. You will always side against the Police, armed services and anyone else in authority (employers) unless there's irrefutable evidence that they were in the right, and even then you're suspicious. |
Yes, that's how it looked to me. David seemed to think it was only about police brutality. I can see that there was some - but we do not know in response to what, or why, or how widespread it was with what level of official sanction etc. I am just challenging the blanket narrative that this was all about police beating defenceless demonstrators because some selective mobile phone footage showed it happening in some places.
Of course the policeman referred to in Morrigu's post should be disciplined or charged, if the story is essentially as described. But it's rarely as it looks, and it serves the agenda of the Catalan independence movement to make it look so. I'd be wary of accepting simplistic stories of what happened and why because it fits an ideological bias.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | As usual, I think, I am prepared to see potential fault on both sides and clearly some actions by the police in that footage warrant investigation - but all you seem to see, and imagine, is police brutality. I think your critical faculties, usually fairly acute, may be hijacked by ideology. |
I don't quite see how I certainly don't necessarily support nationalist/secessionist movements as a rule (it's one issue I'm often on the fence on), and I have no particular love for the centre-right Catalan independence movement. I just view the police reaction here as shocking and, as far as I can tell, uncalled for. You can condemn the violence of protesters to whatever extent unarmed people can manage to land any blows against men in full riot gear but, again, this was not a response to existing violent unrest but rather a physical conflict that the state (in the view of the government, successfully) planned and enacted. So apportioning blame to each side, particularly given the extremely disparate injury count, seems to be missing the point somewhat.
You may feel you're being even-handed, but to me it reads as if you've been far too quick to offer apologia for the police. Perhaps I have been too ready to side with the people being beaten with batons. We all have our biases. |
It'd be easy to take the smooth course and accept the "we all have our biases" compromise, but I did not provide an apologia for the police, unless it is an apologia to say that the police are supposed to enforce the law, and that when human passions run high, bad things can happen on all sides. The received narrative here was that police brutality was the only story. I accepted that some brutality did take place, but suggested that this story had many levels and textual complexity. You'd normally favour that view, but not when it demands a more nuanced understanding of police, I guess.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: | |
|
......
_________________
βThe greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.β
Last edited by Morrigu on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Bloody facts - they get in the way of a good whitewash. |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^ oh in that particular case, it may well be, Morrigu. If you know them well and they are quite level headed, then clearly it is, and I said that the policeman in question should be disciplined or charged if so. I don't see anything WTF about that. If I knew a Spanish policeman who was assaulted by some wild-eyed Catalonian nationalist ( I don't, but twelve were treated for injuries while doing their job) that would not make up the truth of the whole either.
My point, again, is that the way these things are conventionally reported overall is often not the whole story. And I think the Catalonian government should work within the constitution and the law, rather than provoking a confrontation and then using the police reaction as agitprop.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
