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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:21 am
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I think Greer's views on the matter are generally seen as terribly outdated now, and even those who defended her right to free speech (as I did) tended to see them as offensive and misguided. Of course you're entitled to agree with her (or sit on the fence Wink) but to my mind she seems to take an unnecessarily fundamentalist approach to deciding what a 'real' woman is, particularly given the core feminist view (to which she surely at least somewhat subscribes) that gender is constructed.

Anyway, perhaps even she wouldn't oppose trans women being allowed to play the sport of their choice. Ultimately it's all about inclusion vs exclusion I think.

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thesoretoothsayer 



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:39 am
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Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:59 am
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David wrote:
If I were transphobic, I would be too.

Sorry, but why else would you feel cheated in that scenario? Surely, only if you felt like trans women were impostors who didn't belong in the game to begin with, and that strikes me as the very perception we should be fighting against.

stui magpie wrote:
OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?


My guess is that the idea of gender-segregated sporting codes originated in a time when it was taken for granted that men and women were considered fundamentally different and existed in their own worlds – educational institutions in the past were more often single-sex, workplaces were rarely mixed, job positions had different titles depending on gender (waiter/waitress) and it was considered the norm to recognise achievements separately (consider, for example, the fact that we even to this day still have a Best Actor and Best Actress Academy Award!). The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as passé is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.

This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete – and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion.


firstly, his comment does not in any way indicate he is Transphobic. the reason im participating in this thread at all is because there has been no name calling, unlike last time, it has been a safe place for honest discussion. Apart from one poster, i cant see where anyone else has degraded Transgenders.

this thread isnt about legal, its about fair.

secondly, dream on!! you have no idea! Do you really think women are considered, or treated as equals in everyday life in any situation? winning best actress is no lesser achievement than winning best actor! Serena Williams achievements are no lesser than any male tennis players, they are just different. there is nothing wrong with being different. it would be nice if women were treated equally, i mean REALLY treated equally in everyday life, not just on paper! but thats a fair way off!

there may be nowhere else to compete, but why should athletes born female be disadvantaged?

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:12 am
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.


I don't deal with their trangender issues. I merely assess mental state & risk and determine disposition: what next for the person being assessed?:

1. home no assistance,
2. home GP,
3. home usual supports,
4. home private psychologist etc,
5. home and crisis mental health,
6. admit voluntarly
7. admit as a "compulsory person" that is against their will.
7. admit medical if medical issues that warrant an admission then refer to general medical mental health otherwise known as "consultation liaison mental health"

after that I get on with the next assessment. So no big isues so to speak regarding transgender.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:18 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.


On the contrary, my personal experience of interacting with the half-dozen or so transgender people I've known (who have made the transition) has been anything but 'hell'. They're just people – indeed, some seem to have their shit together far more than most of the non-trans people I know.

That's not to diminish the psychological challenges involved, particularly early in life. But this is where stuff like inclusion and acceptance are so important: most of the negative mental health consequences can probably be traced directly back to stigma and lack of acceptance from family, friends and society as a whole. It doesn't have to be that way.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:23 pm
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
If I were transphobic, I would be too.

Sorry, but why else would you feel cheated in that scenario? Surely, only if you felt like trans women were impostors who didn't belong in the game to begin with, and that strikes me as the very perception we should be fighting against.

stui magpie wrote:
OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?


My guess is that the idea of gender-segregated sporting codes originated in a time when it was taken for granted that men and women were considered fundamentally different and existed in their own worlds – educational institutions in the past were more often single-sex, workplaces were rarely mixed, job positions had different titles depending on gender (waiter/waitress) and it was considered the norm to recognise achievements separately (consider, for example, the fact that we even to this day still have a Best Actor and Best Actress Academy Award!). The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as passé is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.

This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete – and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion.


firstly, his comment does not in any way indicate he is Transphobic. the reason im participating in this thread at all is because there has been no name calling, unlike last time, it has been a safe place for honest discussion. Apart from one poster, i cant see where anyone else has degraded Transgenders.

this thread isnt about legal, its about fair.

secondly, dream on!! you have no idea! Do you really think women are considered, or treated as equals in everyday life in any situation? winning best actress is no lesser achievement than winning best actor! Serena Williams achievements are no lesser than any male tennis players, they are just different. there is nothing wrong with being different. it would be nice if women were treated equally, i mean REALLY treated equally in everyday life, not just on paper! but thats a fair way off!

there may be nowhere else to compete, but why should athletes born female be disadvantaged?


I'm not sure how any of that relates to my post. I wasn't implying that sts was transphobic, but that the female players in his hypothetical would have to hold transphobic views in order to be 'pissed off' about losing a marquee spot to a trans woman.

As for the next paragraph, I'm really all at sea there. I'm not sure where I asserted that Serena Williams' achievements were inferior to those of male tennis players, or that 'Best Actress' was an inferior award. Are you saying that Serena Williams would still be a champion of the game if women's and men's tennis only existed as a single competition? If so, aren't you totally undermining your own point?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:22 pm
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I'm saying that Sabrina is one of the greatest female tennis players of all time, if not the greatest. She herself said she cant compete against men. I don't know how to break it to you david, but men and women are different, always were, always will be. Not inferior, just different. Different strengths and weaknesses. Men are physically able to be more powerful, stronger, faster, and agile, and more importantly, all four at once. Women are strong in a different way. And physically they will never, as a majority, be able to compete athletically with men, and nor should they have to.

So if one day your competing for a literary prize and get beaten out by someone who has virtually copied someone else's work, will you complain? Why? It's still a better article.

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stui magpie 

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:10 pm
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David wrote:
thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.


On the contrary, my personal experience of interacting with the half-dozen or so transgender people I've known (who have made the transition) has been anything but 'hell'. They're just people – indeed, some seem to have their shit together far more than most of the non-trans people I know.



That may say a lot about your circle of friends. Razz

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:39 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
I'm not too sure how I feel about the issue of transgendered athletes.

I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

I really have to be conscious of language lest I offend someone. The words "they & them" are used instead of personal pronouns. One day I was feeling particularly proud of myself as I had spent considerable time assisting a couple one of who was a trangendered person. I stuck to the use of non personal pronouns religiously throughout. However, I almost undid all the good work when right at the end I said and I'll take him to the.....when adressing the partner Very Happy Embarassed They laughed!!

There's still something NQR about it in my mind (transgendered athletes) especially with reference to being an athlete of one gender on minute then an athelete for a different gender the next. If I was a woman not via transgender and an aspiring athlete I would by mighty pissed off if my opportunuty was taken as TP was indicating earlier.

Germaine Greer once said basically that lopping off your penis does not in itself (axiomatically) make you a woman. I don't necessarily agree or disgree (ouch the fence) but understand her reasoning for this viewpoint.
I know David in particular is a fan of both Germaine Greer & Sheilagh Jefferies when it comes to Transgender issues Razz

But by golly bi jingo by jeeves did she cop it to a histrionic extent by the pro- tran lobby (not the vietnamese either)

".....(Greer) has tried to defend her trans views before, telling Newsnight last year: “Apparently people have decided that because I don’t think that post-operative transgender men are women, I’m not to be allowed to talk. I’m not saying that people should not be allowed to go through that procedure, what I’m saying is it doesn’t make them a woman.....”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/germaine-greer-defends-her-transgender-views-and-starts-another/

Strange bedfellows: Pa Marmo & Germiane Greer Wink who'd a thunk


Thanks for proving you don't have to be transphobic to have concerns. Wink

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:00 pm
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think positive wrote:
So if one day your competing for a literary prize and get beaten out by someone who has virtually copied someone else's work, will you complain? Why? It's still a better article.


Again, it's just not a fair comparison. You're equating someone who's transgender with a cheat.

Men and women are different; so are people. Jarryd Blair has a totally different size, physique and skill set to Travis Cloke. Do they still have more in common with each other physically than they do with Serena Williams? Yes, quite possibly. But who's to say how much diversity in capability is too much? If Hannah lines up for the AFLW in 2018, I bet you she will lose marking contests, get pinged for holding the ball and play in winning and losing teams. I hope she gets to experience her dream, and I hope that she proves some of the more ridiculous predictions in this thread wrong along the way. Let's wait and see what happens.

stui magpie wrote:
That may say a lot about your circle of friends. Razz


This is quite plausible.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:51 pm
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OK, let's unpack your argument.

mason Cox and Blair aren't competing against each other for the same role, they're competing against other men who have similar physical attributes.

A transgender female is competing for a spot against females with similar attributes but they have a physiological advantage based on their birth gender as TP articulated earlier.

Aussie rules is probably a poor case study due to the diversity of attributes that go to make up an AFL player. Weight lifting (as was discussed earlier) is a far more clear example. Under the current rules a woman could lift a world record for her weight class at the Olympics yet be beaten for the gold by a physiological male (albeit with advantage diluted by chemicals) who had trained as a weight lifter prior to transition. That doesn't sit right with me.

Apply the same to many athletic endeavours. Rowing, running,long jump, high jump etc where the historical records clearly show males perform better than females.

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thesoretoothsayer 



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:52 am
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Interesting way to find out if transwomen are actually physically-advantaged over ciswomen:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4891484/Fists-fly-politically-correct-rally.html
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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:47 am
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Well i hope they push this through to horse racing.
I'm sick of Novative having to carry 2kg more than the girl horses. Since he's gelded, doesn't that put him a little closer to being a transgender horsey?

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:57 am
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Female athletes crushed by 'women who were once men'




You’ve heard the expression, “Boys will be boys.” But what happens when a brawny boy wants to be one of the girls – fiercely competing with females in weightlifting, brutally tackling girls on the football field or even dealing powerful knockout punches to ladies in a mixed martial-arts cage?

It’s now happening across America and around the world.Biological males are joining women’s teams, smashing records and dominating in sports such as weightlifting, softball, cycling, track, wrestling, football, volleyball, dodgeball, handball, cricket, golf, basketball and mixed martial arts.

The insanity of this affects not just the transgendered individual and the women athletes thus victimized,” he said. “It also contributes to a sort of mass delusion infecting our whole society in which, thanks to the influence of the powerful LGBT movement, everybody now has to either affirm the absurd and crazy – that a man who is essentially a female impersonator can fairly compete against women – or they have to suffer abuse and persecution as bigots just for speaking the truth.”

Kupelian said these “grotesquely unfair matchups” between female athletes and powerful men who identify as women is just one more unfortunate aspect of a revolutionary movement sweeping the nation.



Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2017/03/female-athletes-crushed-by-women-who-were-once-men/#4WBeMyYfoY5cc5gp.99

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:20 am
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I must have an unusually masochistic streak this morning because I actually clicked through to the article from that scummy website and found this as one of their examples of political correctness gone mad:

Quote:
Wrestling: Transgender wins high-school girls tournament

Mack Beggs, 17, was born a girl and reportedly began identifying as a boy at the age of 3. Though Beggs underwent testosterone treatments for more than a year and had the muscle mass of a teenage boy, Beggs competed and took first place in the University Interscholastic League state girls’ championship on Feb. 25, 2016.

“If he has been taking hormones, or steroids, he should be wrestling boys,” youth counselor Melissa Roush told CNN.


Think about that one for a moment: it's unfair for a transgender boy (born female) to compete with girls because his hormone replacement therapy treatments have apparently given him an advantage; but a transgender woman who has also been through hormone replacement therapy treatments (having, presumably, the opposite effect) is considered to be just another 'man' competing against women. Seems trans people can't win either way.

(Also note how this is the only example in the article where they avoid misgendering – because it might undermine their argument if they referred to this boy as 'she'.)

I suspect the end goal of the kind of people who write articles like this is not really about sporting integrity. It's about making transgender people disappear from public life altogether.

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