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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:54 am
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Note: so that we don't keep veering off-topic, please use this new thread for any further discussion of non-sport related transgender issues: http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?p=1803627#1803627
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Skids Cancer



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:55 am
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Transgender Athlete Smashes Four Women’s Powerlifting Records

Olympic gold medal winner Kelly Holmes says it’s a “bloody joke”.

Former swimming champion Sharron Davies said the situation was unfair to biological women.

“This is a trans woman a male body with male physiology setting a world record & winning a woman’s event in America in powerlifting. A woman with female biology cannot compete… it’s a pointless unfair playing field,” she tweeted.


Feminists are increasingly denounced as “transphobic” if they argue that women shouldn’t be forced to compete against biological men.

Meanwhile, conservatives who predicted a long time ago that the left would eat its own over this topic just sit back and laugh.


https://summit.news/2019/04/30/transgender-athlete-smashes-four-womens-powerlifting-records/
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:44 am
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Only won 8 out of 9 events, so I guess someone will point to it being ok. It’s not ok. These competitors have every right to be upset. But hey, I guess 1 is happy! It’s just wrong. At the very least NOT FAIR!

It doesn’t matter how many times we have this conversation about what ever sport. Bottom line is you cannot change a persons complete biology, when a transgender gets autopsied, their basic biology will not have changed, their bones may be less dense or more dense, but they will still be the bones they were born with, same with heart size, lung capacity. you don’t have to watch CSI to figure that out. And that makes any physical competition just wrong.

This doesn’t mean I have a problem with someone who identifies as the opposite gender living as the opposite gender or having any operation of therapy to change parts of their biology. On the contrary they have my empathy,it must be terribly difficult to struggle with, and very brave to confront.

It is possible to see both sides of an argument and still have an opinion

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:19 am
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I think they should have a transgender category, let them compete against each other. That's the only fair solution to this ridiculous situation.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:13 pm
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Skids wrote:
I think they should have a transgender category, let them compete against each other. That's the only fair solution to this ridiculous situation.


totally agree.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 4:04 pm
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This is not about a transgender athlete, but goes to demonstrate the same issue, that naturally occurring excess testosterone gives an unfair advantage.

Caster Semenya allegedly has Hyperandroginism, which means her body naturally produces much more testosterone than the usual female range. She's been undefeated in 30 consecutive starts over 800 metres running, and the IAAF has bought in a new rule that anyone competing in the female running events between 400m to the 1 mile has to have testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L, which is still more than double the usual female range but apparently significantly less that what Caster has,

Average female has around 2 nmol/L, average male is around 20. So to compete, she'll have to take medication to lower her testosterone below the limit and maintain that for 6 months before competition.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-01/caster-semenya-iaaf-testosterone-decision/11064298?section=sport

No you could argue it's not fair, Caster is a biological woman, she's passed a sex test and her condition is natural so she's not a cheat.

But you could also argue that allowing her to continue to compete with the high testosterone levels is unfair to all the women who no matter how hard they train cannot build the strength that Caster can because of the extra testosterone.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 5:21 pm
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An interesting counterpoint:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

Quote:
For about a decade — a time that Olympic historians may someday classify as “the Michael Phelps era” — I’ve been reading about the unique genetic blessings bestowed upon the greatest swimmer to ever live. Phelps possesses a disproportionately vast wingspan, for example. Double-jointed ankles give his kick unusual range. In a quirk that borders on supernatural, Phelps apparently produces just half the lactic acid of a typical athlete — and since lactic acid causes fatigue, he’s simply better equipped at a biological level to excel in his sport.

I’m thinking of those stories, because I’m thinking about the ways Michael Phelps was treated as wondrous marvel. Nobody suggested he should be forced to have corrective surgery on his double-jointed ankles, nobody decided he should take medication to boost his lactic levels.

[...]

While we’re talking about the diversity of gender experiences in the field of athletics, we could be talking about a lot of different things. We could be talking about how hordes of aspiring gymnasts have their careers cut short when their genetics cause them to grow taller than 5 feet, and we could talk about the talented would-be female basketball players who spend puberty waiting for a growth spurt that never comes. Competitive athletics are full of biological advantages, both massive and minute: I held multiple swimming records as a kid because of a glitch in my hip that granted me a sublime breaststroke.

We could talk about the medieval-sounding “sex verification test” that Semenya was first forced to undergo in 2009, and how the details of it were murky, and how it’s hard to imagine such a test as anything other than humiliating. “I have been subjected to unwarranted and invasive scrutiny of the most intimate and private details of my being,” she said at the time.

We could talk about all the prurient, invasive, and frequently racist ways we have talked about Caster Semenya over the past 10 years. “It is clear that she is a woman but maybe not 100 percent,” Pierre Weiss, then-secretary general of the IAFF, said of her in 2011. He didn’t specify how it was clear, or whom it was clear to, or what percentage of womanhood he was willing to give her.

Most of all, we could talk about what it means to be a woman. And what it means to insist someone is not a woman. And why Michael Phelps was treated like a marvel, and Caster Semenya is treated like a mutant.

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stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 6:23 pm
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Interesting in that it identified some things about Phelps that helped him out, other than that, this bit you didn't quote suggests it's just an idealised shriek.

Quote:
The court seems to buy into the concept that there are exactly two genders, and that there’s a bright line dividing them: If Caster Semenya has 4.99 nanomoles of testosterone per liter, the “integrity of female athletics” will be preserved, but at 5.01, it won’t.


So, if you were forced to submit to a testosterone test, would you bet your livelihood and your identity on the hope that your measurements would turn up on the correct side of the line? If they didn’t, would you alter your identity based on this new data — or might you argue that your personhood was more than a number? Most women have never been forced to submit to such a test; most of us are quite sure we know who we are without one.

How should athletes who are born with hormonal differences be allowed to participate in the world? If a higher-than-normal level of testosterone makes someone excel in certain pursuits, do we then dictate that they have to stay away from those pursuits — that they can only do things they suck at?


Turning it back into a gender argument and saying it's an attack on her "personhood". Puleese. Rolling Eyes

Like Phelps, I also have a wingspan disproportionate to my height (203cm to 191cm), but I still couldn't swim out of sight on a dark night. There's a reason performance enhancing drugs are banned, to make the playing field level. But, genetics still play a part. How many white men have been on the podium in the 100m at the Olympics in the past 30 years?

Caster has a condition that provides her with a chemical advantage, which becomes a physical advantage. It's not genetics, it's easily treatable and many women with elevated testosterone do get treatment as it can impact their ability to get pregnant and most women look better without a beard.

main point is, if she can't successfully compete when she has a reduced level of testosterone that's still higher than most of her competition, then the only reason she was winning was a chemical advantage and that's not an even playing field

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Skids Cancer



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:10 pm
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David wrote:
An interesting counterpoint:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

Quote:
For about a decade — a time that Olympic historians may someday classify as “the Michael Phelps era” — I’ve been reading about the unique genetic blessings bestowed upon the greatest swimmer to ever live. Phelps possesses a disproportionately vast wingspan, for example. Double-jointed ankles give his kick unusual range. In a quirk that borders on supernatural, Phelps apparently produces just half the lactic acid of a typical athlete — and since lactic acid causes fatigue, he’s simply better equipped at a biological level to excel in his sport.

I’m thinking of those stories, because I’m thinking about the ways Michael Phelps was treated as wondrous marvel. Nobody suggested he should be forced to have corrective surgery on his double-jointed ankles, nobody decided he should take medication to boost his lactic levels.

[...]

While we’re talking about the diversity of gender experiences in the field of athletics, we could be talking about a lot of different things. We could be talking about how hordes of aspiring gymnasts have their careers cut short when their genetics cause them to grow taller than 5 feet, and we could talk about the talented would-be female basketball players who spend puberty waiting for a growth spurt that never comes. Competitive athletics are full of biological advantages, both massive and minute: I held multiple swimming records as a kid because of a glitch in my hip that granted me a sublime breaststroke.

We could talk about the medieval-sounding “sex verification test” that Semenya was first forced to undergo in 2009, and how the details of it were murky, and how it’s hard to imagine such a test as anything other than humiliating. “I have been subjected to unwarranted and invasive scrutiny of the most intimate and private details of my being,” she said at the time.

We could talk about all the prurient, invasive, and frequently racist ways we have talked about Caster Semenya over the past 10 years. “It is clear that she is a woman but maybe not 100 percent,” Pierre Weiss, then-secretary general of the IAFF, said of her in 2011. He didn’t specify how it was clear, or whom it was clear to, or what percentage of womanhood he was willing to give her.

Most of all, we could talk about what it means to be a woman. And what it means to insist someone is not a woman. And why Michael Phelps was treated like a marvel, and Caster Semenya is treated like a mutant.


FMD, those comparisons are ridiculous. If I'd dreamt up something like that the leftie loons would have come for me like a seagull on a chip.
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stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 12:45 pm
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I don't usually read the Guardian, but this was a reasonably balanced article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/03/caster-semenya-fair-play-running-athletics-south-african-ethics-sport-science

These 2 quotes sum up the argument from my side.


Quote:
For many of the athletes she has been beating for years, not to mention those anxious to keep politics out of sport, this argument doubtless feels intensely frustrating and unfair. The blunt truth is that without sex segregation in sport, women would never win medals, and segregation can only work if there is an agreed definition of what makes someone biologically male or female. There is no room on the track for the grey areas and blurred lines increasingly emerging in real life, even if the boundaries created by the IAAF look increasingly crude and artificial by comparison.


Quote:
And this, arguably, is only the beginning. Semenya’s case is, strictly speaking, separate from that of whether trans women should compete in women’s sport, since it revolves around how far testosterone drives performance. For trans female athletes, whose hormone levels will have already been lowered by transitioning, the debate centres more on whether some advantages linger on from years of living in a body flooded with male hormones.

But both are different expressions of the same basic problem, which is that sport relies on strict binary divisions between men and women to create a level playing field. Yet society is drifting away from them, thanks not only to the shifting sands of gender identity but to greater medical understanding.

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:26 am
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Good!

Female Trans Powerlifter Stripped Of Women's Championship Titles

“It was revealed that this female lifter was actually a male in the process of becoming a Transgender female,” Federation president Paul Bossi said in a statement to media. "“Our rules, and the basis of separating genders for competition, are based on physiological classification rather than identification."

"On the basis of all information presented to the Board of Directors for this particular case," Bossi continued, "the conclusion made, is that the correct physiological classification is male.”

http://dlvr.it/R4Z9NQ
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:02 am
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... but only until next time....

as for Caster Semenya, i admit, at first sight i thought, that aint no woman! and yet She was born one, so i dont have any expectation She should change anything. give her the gold. can you imagine what growing up was like?

and yes i know David, its the same for trans athletes, sorry, to me it will always be a different thing.

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stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 8:10 pm
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No arguments she would have done it tough growing up, and none of it due to her own actions.

But, if we agree to segregate men and womans sporting competitions there needs to be a line somewhere and the current approach to Gender doesn't work in sport, plain and simple.

Some things can be a spectrum with shades of grey, some things are binary.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:14 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
No arguments she would have done it tough growing up, and none of it due to her own actions.

But, if we agree to segregate men and womans sporting competitions there needs to be a line somewhere and the current approach to Gender doesn't work in sport, plain and simple.

Some things can be a spectrum with shades of grey, some things are binary.


50 shades of grey?!

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:23 am
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Women’s Groups On Trans Athletes: ‘Males Competing In Women’s Sport Is Blatantly Unfair

With the Tokyo Olympics looming, women's groups in New Zealand and the U.K. are sounding the alarm over the threat posed to the integrity of women's sports by biological males who identify as females being allowed to compete against females.

Among the most high profile of the male-to-female transgender athletes sparking the increasingly widespread outcry against the presence of biological males in women's events is weightlifter Laurel Hubbard, who competed as a man in the sport for decades before competing — and winning — as a woman in recent years.

Fair Play for Women research director, Dr Nicola Williams, who likewise calls for changes in the IOC transgender rules, arguing that they should be suspendend until more thorough research can be conducted.

"We must suspend the rules now and wait for that data in the next five, six, seven years and then decide," Williams told ABC. "In the meantime there have to be other arrangements for transgender people so that they can compete fairly and females can compete fairly."

http://dlvr.it/R9MlqR

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