Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Transgender athletes back on the agenda

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15 ... 17, 18, 19  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:09 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not going to pretend to know how a person in this situation feels, but I totally agree with these 2 posts, as a natural born women, with natural born daughters who play competitive sport. legal or not, it aint right, and it aint fair.
_________________
You never look good trying to make someone else look bad. Disrespecting & insulting other to prove your point just shows how shaky your own position is.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:00 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, a trans male boxer just won a professional fight in the US. I cant wait to hear about how unfair this is to his cis male opponents.

https://sports.yahoo.com/transgender-boxer-pat-manuel-wins-unanimous-decision-historic-professional-debut-034149196.html

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: preparing the Pilosocereus suppository

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:37 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Meanwhile, a trans male boxer just won a professional fight in the US. I cant wait to hear about how unfair this is to his cis male opponents.

https://sports.yahoo.com/transgender-boxer-pat-manuel-wins-unanimous-decision-historic-professional-debut-034149196.html


LOL, from one flawed argument to another.

Boxers fight in tightly controlled weight divisions. He fights super-featherweight which is 57-59 kg. At that weight, you're relying more on skill than strength and as someone who almost made the US Olympic female boxing team, he has some skill. So with any strength advantage his opponent may have had, nullified in part at least by him having 5 years of testosterone enhanced weight training and the strict weight limits, was clearly overcome by skill.

BTW, his opponent, Hugo Aguilar, is what's known in the game as a mug. Only 6 fights in his pro career for 6 losses and he hadn't fought for 12 months.

Good luck to Manuel, nice accomplishment.

But, would you be happy to see Anthony Mundine go transgender (as a hypothetical) and get in the ring with a female boxer of similar age?

_________________
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:03 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Well, yes, re: Mundine. Ive said as much before in this thread, if I recall correctly (see discussions about UFC, Ronda Rousey and so on) and the fact that boxing has weight divisions, as you point out here, would make the disparities between the strongest transgender female athletes and their weakest cis competitors even less significant than in other codes.

What makes people uncomfortable about trans female participation in sports like boxing and UFC, then, I presume, is the prospect of women getting punched and kicked in the face, etc. forgetting that thats precisely what theyre already doing to each other in these sports, and with much more strength and vigour than most male internet commenters, for instance, would be capable of.

Anyway, I mostly just posted this to remind people that there are male as well as female transgender athletes out there, and that they often face similar difficulties in being allowed to participate. Reading most debates about the issue, youd be forgiven for thinking that gender transition only happens in a single direction.

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:18 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

The majority of males are bigger and stronger than the majority of females.

Stui makes very valid points, A BEFORE transition He was a top level female athlete in that division, after he still had that skill and even more strength, and the match made in heaven was against a punch drunk no one. Maybe save the headline til He plays a contender.

If your going to compare, you have to go with like for like, ie top former female against top male, Im guessing that would be over pretty quick, weight restriction or not.

No female runner, no transgender to male will ever get close to usain bolt, even now he is retired. Because women are not built the same way. Usual bolt on transitional drugs Id lay long odds would still blitz the like of cathy freeman.

The best female rick in the competition will never ever give Grundy a run for his money. Grundy as a transgender Id again lay those odd would still blitz the best females in the comp.

_________________
You never look good trying to make someone else look bad. Disrespecting & insulting other to prove your point just shows how shaky your own position is.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: preparing the Pilosocereus suppository

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:10 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair though, that guy he fought would take out any woman in that weight division who didn't have years of legal testosterone boosted muscle training, and he'd probably make short work of most men of similar size who weren't trained.

He deserves credit for the win, it just doesn't prove anything.

_________________
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:28 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

stui magpie wrote:
To be fair though, that guy he fought would take out any woman in that weight division who didn't have years of legal testosterone boosted muscle training, and he'd probably make short work of most men of similar size who weren't trained.

He deserves credit for the win, it just doesn't prove anything.

and the only reason i said anything is because david used it as evidence for the defense!

_________________
You never look good trying to make someone else look bad. Disrespecting & insulting other to prove your point just shows how shaky your own position is.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:07 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Wokko wrote:
The delusion that someone can become a woman with surgery and hormone injections is beyond crazy, it's the only delusion that is treated by pandering to it rather than treating it. How does a man know he's a women anyway having never been one before. How can a man know what women think or feel like? If gender is a construct anyway then why does a trans person need to dress up in 'feminine' clothing or adopt feminine mannerisms? None of this insanity makes any sense.


These are interesting and thought-provoking questions. Ultimately, I think, the same question can be posed to all of us: how do we know, beyond the crude facts of genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics, that we are male/female? I'm a male, but I don't know what "maleness" feels like for you or for Swoop42, or how it felt for David Bowie or Mahatma Gandhi. There's a whole spectrum of masculinity and femininity out there, and I only really know how I feel, and which behavioural norms feel more suitable for me. I've never bought the notion that women are mysterious, unknowable creatures; the vast majority of human impulses are shared across genders, and while some are biological (menstruating, giving birth), many of the experiences that are distinct are either kind of arbitrary (the difficulty of walking in high heels) or culturally imposed (being catcalled by random men). Once you strip away everything but gender from what it is to be human, you're really just left with an assortment of characteristics, experiences and dispositions, many of which are not difficult for someone from another gender to identify with or "try on". Indeed, I can say from my own experience that, even though I'm a man and like being one, I've often found women easier to identify with than other men, many of whose behaviours I honestly find bewildering. I'll never know what it's like to menstruate every month, for instance (and some women never do either), but I do know what it's like to want to be physically intimate and unguarded with friends of the same gender, the way that men rarely are, or to want to be desired in the way that men desire women. Perhaps these are not essential characteristics of being female, but how relevant, exactly, are essential biological characteristics when we talk about the experience of being a certain gender?

Judith Butler's central notion of gender, as I understand it, is that it's essentially a kind of performance that solidifies into identity: we see models of masculinity and femininity and, depending on which we identify with, we grow up to emulate them. When little girls put on lipstick and dresses, they're not responding to inner, essential desires, but playing at being "women", just as when boys suppress their tears in a situation in which they want to cry, they're playing at being "men", with "women" and "men" being roles that our culture has created and overlaid onto the biological categories of female and male.

Now, I hold a somewhat less fundamental view of gender than Butler and what I guess you could call "blank slate" gender theorists I believe that gender is both learned/performed and a product of physical characteristics such as genes and hormones (and I'm guessing that you go all the way to the other side and believe that gender is mostly innate and more or less inseparable from sex). But I think that it's basically true that gender is a spectrum, and that it's quite possible to feel so distant from your assigned gender that is, dysphoric that the only way you can imagine living functionally is to embody the culturally constructed gender ("maleness"/"femaleness") that you identify with. And the fact that many trans people successfully do that and are able to "pass" kind of proves that it's possible. Maybe, at least sometimes, it starts out as a performance and becomes more real once other people see you or treat you as the gender with which you identify. And maybe we're all just performing all the time anyway.

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: preparing the Pilosocereus suppository

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:09 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to think that we need to have two distinct and parallel laws around "gender" and "sex", define them both and use them both.

I don't buy the whole "gender is a social construct" argument as there a physiological, chemical and genetic differences between the sexes which can account (at least in part) for different behaviour and preferences as well as physical attributes.

My experience of raising a son and daughter as largely a single parent, is that kids will play with what they're interested in. I never pushed my daughter to play with dolls, she nagged me to buy them and played with them. She also played with cars and joined in street sports with the boys in the street where the other girls didn't.

So maybe we reach a point where gender can be fluid but sex isn't and they're used differently in different situations.

eg, if someone identifies as a different gender to their sex, the current bits and bobs apply to allow them to do that and be treated accordingly.

However, things like participating in competitive sport could be based on sex rather than gender. If you have 2 X chromosomes, your sex is female irrespective of your gender, if you have an X and Y chromosome, your sex is male.

_________________
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:23 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

That just seems kind of like goalpost-shifting to me, though. Why the need to revert to a biological form of segregation when, until now, weve been happy to maintain a gender-based one? I fear that any such move would just end up being a sneaky way to undermine transgender peoples rights and a not clearly warranted one because the purpose of most forms of gender segregation (toilets and changerooms, etc.) was never really about chromosomes to begin with. Indeed, the fact that such a redefinition is only being raised now in the US indicates quite clearly that its only purpose is exclusion.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
Pi 



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:21 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the goal posts have already been moved, gender used to define biology now it doesn't. ok, but that doesn't mean biology has disappeared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bbINLWtMKI

The person in this video you posted has decided to identify as female, legally and socially , ok no problems with pronouns or the language we are all required to use.

But lets be honest; given they spent $$$$ to try and look female and dont; why did they bother?
The current convention seems to be you have to ask someones preferred pronoun before making assumptions.

So why bother having gender as an identity?

Go a step further and not bother with biological segregation in sports.

does that really work? .....

_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:25 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I know of.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:53 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quite sure where youre going there, Pi maybe Im not as good at identifying transgender people, but Contra just looks like a regular chick to me (and quite an attractive one, at that) in her more recent videos. But thats neither here nor there really, and each to their own.

Otherwise, yeah, were in the tricky, paradoxical space of non-binary and transgender, which a lot of people presume are the same thing but are, in at least some specific respects, polar opposites: transgender people tend to have a more or less binary view of gender (hence the desire to transition), whereas non-binary people seek to escape those constraints altogether (this distinction is dealt with towards the end of that video, by the way). While Im sure this leads to some interesting debates, ultimately it doesnt need to be a big deal for the rest of us: if a trans woman wants to be called she and a non-binary person wants to be they, its not so hard for us to respect those wishes. Like with same-sex marriage and Christian bakers, I find that some conservative people work very hard to come up with edge cases in which accepting peoples identities will lead to the downfall of society perverts in bathrooms! An end to womens sport! Jail for accidentally misgendering someone! but the fact is that our society has been quietly accommodating transgender people in most facets for decades now and we generally seem to be doing okay, because, ultimately, trans men and women are mostly just regular people quietly trying to get on with their lives.

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:01 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

How about they get their own division? Likewise trans genders. Because fair should not just be a thing for minorities to make them feel included.


For another spanner, how many male to female transgenders played their chosen sport pre op? Or are they just taking advantage of their physical advantage?

_________________
You never look good trying to make someone else look bad. Disrespecting & insulting other to prove your point just shows how shaky your own position is.


Last edited by think positive on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pi 



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:56 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Not quite sure where youre going there, Pi maybe Im not as good at identifying transgender people, but Contra just looks like a regular chick to me (and quite an attractive one, at that) in her more recent videos. But thats neither here nor there really, and each to their own.

Otherwise, yeah, were in the tricky, paradoxical space of non-binary and transgender, which a lot of people presume are the same thing but are, in at least some specific respects, polar opposites: transgender people tend to have a more or less binary view of gender (hence the desire to transition), whereas non-binary people seek to escape those constraints altogether (this distinction is dealt with towards the end of that video, by the way). While Im sure this leads to some interesting debates, ultimately it doesnt need to be a big deal for the rest of us: if a trans woman wants to be called she and a non-binary person wants to be they, its not so hard for us to respect those wishes. Like with same-sex marriage and Christian bakers, I find that some conservative people work very hard to come up with edge cases in which accepting peoples identities will lead to the downfall of society perverts in bathrooms! An end to womens sport! Jail for accidentally misgendering someone! but the fact is that our society has been quietly accommodating transgender people in most facets for decades now and we generally seem to be doing okay, because, ultimately, trans men and women are mostly just regular people quietly trying to get on with their lives.



You think Contra looks like a regular chick..did you do human anatomy? If so please dont get a pilots licence.
Lets look at a few things: hands, teeth, laryngeal prominence, voice and body language, still anatomically female? Ask a doctor if they can spot the difference.
I have no problem with using this persons preferred pronouns, even if they are not always obvious; its like pronouncing someones name correctly.
However, if a fully transitioned boxer comes into a hospital complaining of abdominal pains, what test do you do first? At the end of day they will have to tell the doctor of their biological birth sex as it will determine the tests they do first.

_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern All times are GMT + 10 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15 ... 17, 18, 19  Next
Page 14 of 19   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group