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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Skids wrote: | You don't need to be a 'gender expert' (please tell me, we don't really have these?!)to know there are males & females.
Anyone who thinks differently has obvious mental issues. |
...or else a basic functioning understanding of the English language, or biology.
Firstly, it's simply not scientifically accurate that there are only males and females and that it's always obvious which is which. Approximately one in 1000 people are born intersex, which means they are either not identifiably male or female, or else that they possess substantial characteristics of both sexes. But the question of what sex actually is is somewhat more complicated: yes, it usually corresponds to what someone has between their legs. But there's a substantial amount of research that shows that a person born male can have an essentially 'female' brain, and vice versa:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/
Also see intersex conditions such as XY gonadal dysgenesis, in which someone's chromosomes and external appearance don't match up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
But the most important thing to understand here is that, despite common misconceptions (mostly arising from people erroneously using the terms interchangeably), sex and gender are not the same thing. Anybody who uses the word gender to refer to the difference between genitals is using the word incorrectly: the term 'gender' is and has always been, since it was borrowed from linguistics and first used in the social sciences in the 1960s, an idea about socially constructed roles: things like masculinity and femininity. I repeat: 'gender' does not mean what you think it means, and it never has.
One can justifiably debate whether a transgender woman is biologically male or female in terms of her sex (again, see the studies referred to in the article above); but gender, in theory, has nothing to do with whether you were born with a penis or vagina. Rather, it's about what role you perform in society. In that sense, by identifying and presenting as women, trans women are quite reasonably nowadays considered to be women, because we recognise that gender is about more than just what's in your pants. You may think your dimly recalled biology classes in school taught you otherwise and that everyone else is crazy, but newsflash: you don't know nearly as much about the subject as you think you do.
(By the way, a note on the moderation of Culprit's post above: You are entitled to whatever view you hold on transgender and to argue anything you like on the topic, but what isn't optional in this forum is treating people with this condition with dignity. As such, misgendering someone by sneeringly referring to them as 'he' when they identify otherwise is extremely disrespectful and will be moderated, with repeat offenders warned.)
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Does the same apply to race?
I'm white (at least whitesh) but if I choose to identify as a black man then I'm a black. Right?
This is because I diffentiate between biological race (the race I was assigned at birth), my racial identity (the race I identify as) and my racial expression (the way I "perform" my race).
Similarly, I also identify as a pit bull terrier.
This is because I diffentiate between biological species (the species I was assigned at birth), my species identity (the species I identify as) and my species expression (the way I "perform" my species).
This way of thinking is so liberating.
I can be whatever I want just be saying that I am.
p.s. I also identify as an Attack Helicopter.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=helisexual |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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This topic has the potential to get seriously messy.
I get the anomalies who are born with indeterminate sex organs, but once you start typing gender as a "role" we're going down the rabbit hole.
How can the same people who argue that gender roles are a product of society and that a little girl only plays with dolls is because that's what pushed on her, then argue that these roles are part of the differences between male and female brains? Seems like a massive contradiction.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | Does the same apply to race?
I'm white (at least whitesh) but if I choose to identify as a black man then I'm a black. Right?
This is because I diffentiate between biological race (the race I was assigned at birth), my racial identity (the race I identify as) and my racial expression (the way I "perform" my race).
Similarly, I also identify as a pit bull terrier.
This is because I diffentiate between biological species (the species I was assigned at birth), my species identity (the species I identify as) and my species expression (the way I "perform" my species).
This way of thinking is so liberating.
I can be whatever I want just be saying that I am.
p.s. I also identify as an Attack Helicopter.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=helisexual |
I didn't expect you to read my post in full, sts, but it's not too late to try again. Gender is a performative identity. That's not just what I or some other people reckon, it's more or less the dictionary definition of the term. It's the precise phenomenon for which the term was devised, so we could talk about those aspect of social maleness and femaleness that exist beyond biological difference.
Your glib comparisons (I've literally never heard that attack helicopter joke before, v. original) obscure several facts: one, that gender dysphoria is not something that people just wake up one day and decide to experience or capriciously choose, but rather an acute, ongoing feeling of being in the wrong body. Of course, I'm sure even you realise that nobody makes the decision to transition lightly. I think it's overwhelmingly a good thing that, rather than punishing or pathologising them, society today permits people with that condition to live and present as the gender that they feel is theirs (and, in many cases, the sex that their brain more closely aligns with).
Secondly, it might interest or amuse you to know that race is no more a biological reality than sex is. Just like gender, to label yourself as white or black is very much a form of performative identity. Whether or not, say, an Italian thinks of themselves as 'white' may well depend on cultural context and what that identity connotes for them, much as someone who is part-Aboriginal may or may not choose to identify as 'black'. Of course, when I say 'choose', I don't mean to imply that these are spontaneous decisions; race, like gender, is something that society tends to thrust on us, and we are heavily shaped by those discourses. But, ultimately, we are always able, if we deeply wish it, to identify as a jerk.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | This topic has the potential to get seriously messy.
I get the anomalies who are born with indeterminate sex organs, but once you start typing gender as a "role" we're going down the rabbit hole.
How can the same people who argue that gender roles are a product of society and that a little girl only plays with dolls is because that's what pushed on her, then argue that these roles are part of the differences between male and female brains? Seems like a massive contradiction. |
I think this, again, is a confusion of sex and gender. Any difference between 'maleness' and 'femaleness' in the brain would be, one presumes, a difference of sex, not gender, given that it's rooted in biology rather than social roles (though there's no question that gender is, by and large, at least partially shaped by sexual characteristics). It's a tricky area, but here's a good introductory run-down:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
By the way, I don't mean to imply that all of this stuff is obvious and only dumb people don't get it. It is a really complex area, and I don't think we're close to totally understanding how sex (as a scientific phenomenon) and gender (as a social construct) work. But it's frustrating to see so much aggressive ignorance out there on this topic; just check out any YouTube video about transgender to see hundreds of people confidently asserting that the gender binary is a scientific reality.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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So the argument really becomes about sex not gender then when we're talking about participating in sport, doesn't it? As Gender identification confers no physical advantage or disadvantage, but sex does?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I think that's definitely true to an extent, though of course it's complicated by the fact that trans women are legally women, and there are few if any areas in life in which gender segregation is made on any other terms than legal status and identity. To divide according to sex rather than gender (and keep in mind that even the idea of a genitalia-oriented sex binary is in contention here, given the aforementioned neural studies) would open up a whole new can of worms over the legality and purpose of such discrimination.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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But isn't that exactly what the AFL (and IOC) are doing with their rules about testosterone levels?
You can whack on a dress and identify as female, but sexually you're still male.
You can't change your chromesomes, but getting the tackle amputated and taking hormones is as close as you can reasonably go and I reckon that should be the bar to participate in sport.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Well, it’s all a question of what our aims are, right? If it’s about trying to ensure a fair playing field for other competitors, then regulating testosterone levels makes sense. Otherwise, I don’t see what purpose making reassignment surgery mandatory would be if the previous criteria were already met.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Look, good point but I suppose for mine, having the surgery demonstrates commitment. Just taking hormones, all you need to do is stop and instead top load on testosterone and you're male again.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | But, ultimately, we are always able, if we deeply wish it, to identify as a jerk. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | But isn't that exactly what the AFL (and IOC) are doing with their rules about testosterone levels?
You can whack on a dress and identify as female, but sexually you're still male.
You can't change your chromesomes, but getting the tackle amputated and taking hormones is as close as you can reasonably go and I reckon that should be the bar to participate in sport. |
This 100% nothing less
I also.ike your idea of open competition, and seperate ladies.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Disappointing news. Obviously we're not privy to precisely what's gone on behind the scenes, but I don't think this reflects well on the AFL at all.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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