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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Ballarat!

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:45 pm
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What about the other 576 genders?
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:42 pm
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stui magpie wrote:




I have no issue with transgender people, as I said above.

My only issue is with transgender sports people.


Exactly right.

David how about answering the point about Hannah's body composition? No female can be built like that and maintain the same level of athleticism. We just ain't made that way. It's a massive power advantage. MMA fighting for example. And yes I know 1 transgender lost a fight. Like I said before, it might be legal, but it's sure as hell ain't fair. Political correctness gone mad.

As for a real woman? Define real? physically they never can be. Legally a woman, comfortable on their own body, yes. Their brain may be saying female, but the body will always be a suppressed male.

Where is it written that in life you get to have anything you want? There is restrictions for most things. Short people can't even get on some rides in theme parks. Large people can't go on because of weight restrictions. Why do these people get everything they want? If transgenders get to hold world records in their new assigned gender, then you have to allow steroid effected athletes too. What's the difference?

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Skids Cancer



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 ... aka Assassin member #175

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:40 am
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Wokko wrote:
What about the other 576 genders?


What about the no gender at all group? Who will they play with Confused

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Ballarat!

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:30 am
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As much as I'm against transgenders from competing in female sports, there are indeed some freaks of nature out there in the sporting world. This is Gabi Garcia, BJJ black belt and mixed martial arts fighter. She's 6'2" and 95 kg. She could beat just about any untrained man in a fight, and even a fair few trained ones.



Even if we assume she's used steroids, she's still a woman and even women on steroids don't tend to get that big, strong and athletic.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:51 pm
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The Fear of Transgenders is alarming. I doubt many have ever interacted with a transgender so understanding isn't there. If a Transgender wishes to play sport and meet all the criteria on offer I don't have an issue as long as they want to wear Black and White.
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:54 pm
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Is this a riddle?
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:12 pm
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Culprit wrote:
The Fear of Transgenders is alarming. I doubt many have ever interacted with a transgender so understanding isn't there. If a Transgender wishes to play sport and meet all the criteria on offer I don't have an issue as long as they want to wear Black and White.


Who mentioned fear? No fear, just don't like seeing females from birth bowled over by an opponent with an unfair physical advantage. And yes I have seen it happen, many times, and a hell of a lot of players at the centre are not happy about it. Especially when they themselves have been warned about rough play, but nothing is done or said when the person who has transgendered does it. So much for an equal playing field.

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:15 pm
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Culprit wrote:
The Fear of Transgenders is alarming. I doubt many have ever interacted with a transgender so understanding isn't there. If a Transgender wishes to play sport and meet all the criteria on offer I don't have an issue as long as they want to wear Black and White.


In my case it's not fear, I have interacted with Transgender people before (plural) and I do have a lot of empathy for them.

I know what I've written in this thread would be construed by many of them to be hurtful and that's a long way from my intent.

As Wokko says, there are genetic freaks of all genders. Chyna was a female wrestler who could beat many men.

The point that I can't climb over is that we have separate sporting competitions for males and females for a reason, and a male athlete who transitions to a female still has a physical advantage despite the hormone treatment. I'd find it easier to accept if the person hadn't already competed in the sport as a man, against men, prior to transition.

However, as I did say before, the competitions have put rules in place and if that works for them, then fair enough. It doesn't change my fundamental view but I'm not going to protest or lobby about it, I'm just providing my opinion FWIW.

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Pa Marmo 

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Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:18 pm
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Oh come on, what's the harm if he wants to be a girl, and he wants to play footy with the girls. He was obviously born that way, it's a girl in a boys body, just because he has to remove a penis and two testicles, and just because he had to get breast implants to have boobies, doesn't mean he isn't a girl inside. Give him a go, the tackle highlights real should be like a TAC road trauma add.
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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:58 pm
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Still waiting to hear about an increase in hospitalisations in Canberra AFLW matches this year while Hannah was playing for Ainslie. As they say, put up or shut up.

TP, there are a lot of points there to discuss. The first is how this differs from steroid use. Let's keep in mind here that steroids often aren't illegal in the wider world. So why are they banned in sport? The answer is simple: if sporting codes allow unlimited use of performance enhancers, success becomes an effective medical arms race, putting competitors' health at risk and ruining the image of the sport as skill and hard work become secondary to how many injections a player has received. So they feel the need to draw the line somewhere. Once that ban is in place, any player who takes steroids has given themselves an unfair advantage over everyone else who is abiding by the rules unfair because they're breaking the rules, not because some players are now weaker than them.

So to recap: the only reason why steroid use constitutes an unfair advantage is that pretty much all sporting codes have legislated for it to be so. There is nothing inherent in them that makes them unfair.

As discussed previously, there are plenty of other areas where players or clubs are permitted to have 'unfair' advantages. Height, weight, strength, athleticism and natural ability are all natural inequalities: Lance Franklin isn't expected to start the game with one arm tied behind his back. Similarly, some clubs may have much better training facilities than others, and in codes like the English Premier League, have nearly no limitations on how many star players they can buy. Ultimately, only a sporting code can decide what is or isn't unfair, and most women's sporting codes in Australia have decided that, under certain conditions often related to hormonal constitution transgender women can compete.

What's the worst case scenario here? That transgender women end up starring for their teams? Why not see that as something to celebrate? To turn your argument around, sometimes you may end up competing on the sporting field against someone who is bigger and stronger than you. Life isn't fair suck it up and do your best to compete. Complaining that your opponent is transgender and weighs 100 kilos is like a 195cm ruckman complaining about having to try to win hitouts against Aaron Sandilands. What do you think the coach would say in that scenario? "Stop sooking, get out there and play."
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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:12 pm
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By the way, if, like me, you feel this argument is familiar, you're right ... click back to page 1 for an almost identical discussion featuring the exact same posters and the exact same arguments.

Such is Nick's. Rinse, repeat. Laughing

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:19 pm
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My problem with your argument is that it's about physical diversity within a gender, doesn't address the physiological differences between men and women and I therefore deem it irrelevant, misinformed and generally nonsensical.

You have been posting the same argument since page 1, it hasn't got any better. It's still shit.

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Pa Marmo 

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Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:22 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
My problem with your argument is that it's about physical diversity within a gender, doesn't address the physiological differences between men and women and I therefore deem it irrelevant, misinformed and generally nonsensical.

You have been posting the same argument since page 1, it hasn't got any better. It's still shit.


In lieu of a like button I had to quote this post, I love it.......lots.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
My problem with your argument is that it's about physical diversity within a gender, doesn't address the physiological differences between men and women and I therefore deem it irrelevant, misinformed and generally nonsensical.

You have been posting the same argument since page 1, it hasn't got any better. It's still shit.


But you haven't explained what makes these fundamentally different, so "your argument is shit" doesn't really qualify as a rebuttal. As, for instance, Wokko's post above shows, physical diversity between cis women can be quite extreme. So, unless you're arguing that the weakest man is in a different league in terms of strength and ability to the strongest woman and we know this is far from the case then we're still just dealing with a spectrum.

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:59 pm
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No. Try reading my arguments.

A male who transitions to a female has a physical advantage for one. If you transitioned, you're chances of being a top line AFLW player would be slim to none as you have close to zero talent.

However, a male athlete who has competed as an adult man against other adult men to then transition and play against women, if that person doesn't have a physical advantage I'll go she.

Find me a single athletic sport/competition where the best woman is better than then best man. There aren't any. It's not an equal playing field, but if the relevant bodies are OK with it, that's fine with me.

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