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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:32 am
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Yes, I think even the most ardent transgender advocates acknowledge that there are some contexts where birth sex remains relevant (such as in medical situations). And if you agree with treating people respectfully, then, whatever our philosophical disagreements on the science and politics of transgender, we're not fundamentally opposed in practice.
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:08 pm
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David wrote:
Yes, I think even the most ardent transgender advocates acknowledge that there are some contexts where birth sex remains relevant (such as in medical situations). And if you agree with treating people respectfully, then, whatever our philosophical disagreements on the science and politics of transgender, we're not fundamentally opposed in practice.


Medical situations and participation in top level sport are situations when birth sex remains relevant, as both come down to physiology, hence my suggestion which you dismissed as a form of segregation.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:37 pm
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^ I think by now I’ve put that case enough times in this thread that I don’t need to reiterate why – but yes, that is my view.
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Woods Capricorn



Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:53 pm
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A quickfire, intelligent 6 minute discussion on Youtube between Joe Rogan and the Jordan Peterson on transgender sports competitors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSIEmfNVeA

Covers most of the main issues. Also covers some predictions on where the transgender agenda (see what I did there!) is heading in broader society.

(NB. Peterson will be in Aust in Feb. Word I've heard is that an AFL club(s) is looking at getting him in to talk to players. He won't be got cheap though, I would think. Guys on a global roll.)
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:53 pm
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David wrote:
^ I think by now I’ve put that case enough times in this thread that I don’t need to reiterate why – but yes, that is my view.


OK. We disagree. I can't see how you can acknowledge the difference in male and female physiology when it comes to medical treatment, and not acknowledge the impact it has in athletic competition. Gender may be a social construct but Sex (with very few exceptions) is fixed at birth. How you want to be treated and how you identify is one thing, your latent physiology is a different matter

Clearly we're at an impasse where we see things differently, so be it.

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:01 pm
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Woods wrote:
A quickfire, intelligent 6 minute discussion on Youtube between Joe Rogan and the Jordan Peterson on transgender sports competitors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSIEmfNVeA

Covers most of the main issues. Also covers some predictions on where the transgender agenda (see what I did there!) is heading in broader society.

(NB. Peterson will be in Aust in Feb. Word I've heard is that an AFL club(s) is looking at getting him in to talk to players. He won't be got cheap though, I would think. Guys on a global roll.)


Good discussion in my opinion and I agree with them.

Nice alternative they raised, let male and female be gender and XX or XY be sex.

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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:05 pm
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Try putting that in a more specific context. You and I are on the same wavelength, mr Foley then left the bar.
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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:25 am
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https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/transgender-women-cycling/
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:15 am
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Yeah nothing wrong there AT ALL! Why would anyone biological female get their nose out of joint for all the hours, years of training they put in! Talk about Whingers! And yes my button got pushed! It’s a very straight shooting article, and it’s offensive in places, especially if you look for it, but there is s lot of truth in it. You can’t change DNA.

Newsflash, everyone should have rights, including the second and third place getters. And the rest of the field come to that! And to compare this to racial discrimination? Utter bullshit. I couldn’t do it, it would be like playing years younger than your age group, where is the credibility? Most people, even if only subconsciously would have doubts.

The only fair thing for everyone is to have a separate division. They still get to compete, they still get to be included. And that should be enough. Not everyone gets to be a world champion. Thats life! And I know that’s gunna get turned around to those 2nd and third place getters. What can you say? I honestly can’t believe anyone would stand on that podium like that and think they deserve it. But then I’m still bitterly disappointed in lance Armstrong!

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:19 am
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We already discussed this exact story in this thread on page 11. Not sure why we needed some right-wing talk-show airhead's hot take on it.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:29 am
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gees thats 9 pages ago, last weeks a blank! menopausal memory!! cheers, my apols!
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:53 am
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Well, it's quite common for topics to be discussed over and over again, in many different threads, over vast stretches of time, with no fresh input. Whether this bothers Nicksters (whether they even notice) depends on the circumstances, perhaps, such as whether they like what's being said.
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Wokko Pisces

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:53 pm
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https://www.pluralist.com/posts/2186-feminist-tennis-legend-martina-navratilova-you-can-t-have-a-penis-and-compete-as-a-woman
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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:53 pm
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The fixation on whether a competitor is pre-op or post-op seems like something of a red herring here, as that has no bearing on things like stength and hormonal levels. If that’s where Navratilova wants to draw the line, then it seems a bit arbitrary – and such a policy won’t please the transphobes, who would never accept a trans female competitor under any circumstances and no matter how many hoops they’ve jumped through.
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:40 pm
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^

Correct, if you take the dingleberries as well, they can't produce as much testosterone anymore, but a male athlete will take a fair while to lose their physical advantage, if ever, while they continue to train once transitioned.

Building new muscle would be harder but maintaining it or slowing the loss by continuing training is realistic.

Has there ever been a case of a male athlete transitioning to female, competing in competitive sport or athletics as a female, then transitioning back to male once their athletic career is over?

Edit, the general reversal rate seems very low.

Quote:
36 surgical reversals out of 18,000-27,000 trans patients who’ve received surgery is a reversal rate of 0.13-0.2%. This is consistent with existing studies finding that rates of regret following genital surgery of about 2%, and indicates that only a small fraction of those who do experience regret will go on to seek reversal surgery.


And reversing genital surgery doesn't necessarily mean reversing gender identification.

https://genderanalysis.net/2018/08/transgender-surgical-reversal-statistics-a-clearer-picture-emerges/

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