 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | Same old arguments. Just reducing the amount of testosterone doesn't reduce the physical advantage someone born male and trained as an athlete has over someone born woman similarly trained
I know Rita Panahi isn't everyones cup of tea here, but I thought this was a good article on the subject.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/female-athletes-are-right-to-be-concerned-about-trans-competitors-writes-rita-panahi/news-story/174f730ff2d436072eb3eb70eab716d8
Quoted in full for those who can't get past the paywall.
| Quote: | IN this gender-fluid age of identity politics where feelings matter more than chromosomes, the fairer sex is being asked to accept athletes with an unfair advantage.
It’s hardly an avalanche but slowly female athletes who were born male are beginning to make their presence felt in elite sporting circles. Some compete without their former gender being disclosed while others are proudly, and some would say obviously, transgender.
A Canadian cyclist who identifies as female, Rachel McKinnon, last week won the 2018 UCI Masters track championships in Los Angeles.
McKinnon, a philosophy professor who calls herself an “internationally recognised expert on the science and ethics of transgender inclusion in sport”, took to Twitter to declare, “I can’t believe that I’m the first trans woman world champion” with a picture of her on the dais looking bigger and stronger than the CIS gender women who placed second and third.
She then called any criticism of her achievement “transphobic bigotry” and claimed that elevated testosterone levels and male body development don’t give her an unfair advantage. Indeed, McKinnon believes that testing transgender athletes’ testosterone levels violates their human rights.
“We cannot have a woman legally recognised as a trans woman in society and not be recognised that way in sports,” McKinnon said.
“Focusing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant because this is a rights issue. We shouldn’t be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead.”
Predictably, there was a strong response on social media ranging from adulation and glowing media reports, to criticism from those who believe McKinnon had no business competing in a women’s competition. Among them was third placegetter Dr Jennifer Wagner who said it was neither fair nor right.
Professor Kathleen Stock, whom McKinnon labelled a “transphobic bigot”, pointed out that those born male enjoy certain physical advantages when it comes to athletic prowess.
Ricky Gervais tweeted: “Women’s heavyweight boxing is gonna get f---ing interesting.”
“You beat a bunch of females, due to genetically endowed features none of them could hope to have,” Prof Stock tweeted.
Comedian Ricky Gervais also mocked the historic sporting moment, posting: “Yeah, she’s done well there. I’m sure all the women she beat will try even harder next year.” He added: “Women’s heavyweight boxing is gonna get f---ing interesting.”
Gervais has a point — there’s a reason why men and women have separate competitions. Men are faster, more powerful and have significantly higher levels of testosterone.
That doesn’t mean a competitor born male but identifying as a woman, and undergoing gender reassignment, doesn’t have to train hard to win but they go into any competition with a significant advantage. It is plainly unfair to expect women to be competitive against males in physical pursuits.
Who can forget the Williams sisters taking on the 203rd ranked male player Karsten Braasch who prepared for the match with a few drinks and cigarettes but still managed to beat Serena 6-1 and Venus 6-2 back when Venus was a top-five player.
MORE recently, the national women’s soccer side, the Matildas, lost 7-0 to an under-15 boys side from Newcastle in the lead-up to the Rio Games in 2016. Matildas coach Alen Stajcic responded to criticism of the result by explaining the disadvantage females face against males, even those under 15.
“At the end of the day, four of the seven goals scored last night were scored off crosses. If someone is half a foot or a foot taller than you, that’s an anatomical and a biomechanical thing and you can’t do anything about that.”
At this year’s Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast, a “transgender ticking time bomb” was about to explode before New Zealand’s heavyweight weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, succumbed to an elbow injury and had to withdraw just when it looked certain she’d win gold.
Hubbard used to be Gavin and competed internationally as a male before transitioning at the age of 35 and competing as a woman. Last year in Melbourne, she competed in her first major international competition and broke a number of national records on her way to winning the women’s over-90kg division. She was representing NZ after beating Olympic medallist Tracey Lambrechs who, after Hubbard’s rise, lost 17kg to compete at a lower weight division.
Before the Commonwealth Games, her participation caused an outcry from a number of weightlifting federations, including Samoa. “A man is a man and a woman is a woman and I know a lot of changes have gone through, but in the past, Laurel Hubbard used to be a male champion weightlifter,” said the Samoan head coach. “The strength is still there and I think it’s very unfair, and for all females it’s unfair.”
Of course, anyone who doesn’t embrace transgender athletes is subjected to all sorts of abuse.
New Zealand physiology professor Alison Heather believes transgender athletes have an unfair advantage, particularly given their elevated testosterone levels. The IOC allows transgender athletes to have testosterone levels up to 10 nanomoles per litre, significantly less than the average male but more than three times the level of the average women.
“The physiological attributes of males that makes them naturally stronger including anatomical and biological features such as size, muscle mass, lung capacity, and heart size would be an advantage,” said Heather, who has called for greater research to determine whether “it is a level playing field for CIS women versus trans women”.
It may be stating the bleeding obvious but men and women are different and pretending otherwise only disadvantages women. |
|
I should have gone back a page! Spot on article
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
 |
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Does anyone ever really is half a foot or a foot taller than you that’s an anatomical and a biomechanical thing and you can’t do anything about that? |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | Remember Mason Cox casually outmarking desperate 6-foot-plus defenders in the second quarter of the preliminary final? They couldn’t lay a finger on the ball. If he held his marks more than 50% of the time, he’d be near unbeatable. Is that unfair, or just a reflection of biological differences?
(On the bolded part of the quote above, I would be open to considering a lowering of the threshold of acceptable testosterone levels if it emerged that current disparities are too great. But unfortunately that still wouldn’t stop people griping whenever a transgender sportsperson did well. Ultimately, people won’t be happy until trans women just give up on sport altogether and live quietly on the fringes of society where they won’t bother anyone, like good supplicants.)
| think positive wrote: | What is wrong with seperate games?
do you feel that way about the disabled Olympics? |
I already explained above: it’d be essentially sticking them into a tiny sporting ghetto. How many elite trans female athletes do you think there are in the world? And if such a competition got off the ground, would you watch it and support it? Not likely.
(Interesting analogy, btw: women and people with disabilities.  ) |
I actually expected you to come back with that. Maybe I just have a different way of looking at the disabled games, I’m actually quite awestruck by them, and as much as I cried for Bolts gold medal haul, I’ve cried buckets for the amazing stories of courage and what these amazing athletes have had to overcome. And now the stories of some athletes lying about, and actually faking doctors records to compete in a different division pisses me off as much as the Essendon saga did.
As for would I watch and support it, no different from any other minority group working their way into mainstream. Their rights doesn’t mean the rights of anyone else should get shoved aside. Why do they get special treatment? And by the way I don’t watch the AFLWL because I find it boring.im not forcing myself to watch it because it’s politally correct.
You once said I don’t think someone changes sex just to win a medal, how about that weightlifter? Competed as a man, now wants to compete as a woman? You have to be kidding me that that is in any way shape of form fair? In life we all have to make choices, so be an athlete first, then change sex. And no I’m not saying that’s the mind set for becoming a woman, but I am saying think about it, it’s not possibly fair.
Olympic medals are traditionally the best and fairest.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | If we can accept that a person who was born with the biological sex of a man can become a woman, why is it so hard to accept that they maintain a physical advantage over people born biological women? Or is that just the inherent disconnect between humanities and science? |
But we know that. The point is that there are all kinds of biological advantages and disadvantages in competitive sport. A transgender woman may possess a larger cocktail of those factors, but ultimately, as Tannin says above, where do you draw the line? If there was an abnormally strong, tall and bulky candidate for the male AFL draft, would we dream of barring them from competition? On what principle? Does anyone look at Usain Bolt’s total dominance of running events and think he shouldn’t be competing? You say trans and cis women are like apples and oranges, but can’t that be said of people in general? Hormonal levels, size and dexterity differ markedly within people of the same sex, too. Are Bolt and, say, your average male Melbourne Cup jockey really “apples and apples” in any meaningful sense other than their shared gender?
When it comes to science, by the way, I really don’t see a lot of understanding of the science of gender dysphoria or sex difference in most critiques of transgender sport participation. Most people’s knowledge of this topic is pretty unsophisticated and more or less ends with “men have penises and women have vaginas”. |
Bolt was smart, he chose a sport he was physically perfect for. So did that Damian guy. I’m guessing if he wanted to be a jockey, he would accept that he would not be riding in the Melbourne cup. You don’t get to do everything in life just because you want to.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | You say trans and cis women are like apples and oranges, but can’t that be said of people in general? Hormonal levels, size and dexterity differ markedly within people of the same sex, too. |
Why don't we take what you and Tannin are arguing to it's logical conclusion?
If we are not going to take into account size, hormonal levels, genitalia etc. then why don't we eliminate all gender division in sport?
That's right. No more mens wimbledon and ladies wimbledon. Just one big pot of cash that a man (it will always be a man) gets to take home every year.
No women's track and field. Just men standing on a podium getting medals.
No AFLW. Just clubs picking the best female/male players for a single (all male) co-ed team. |
I already responded to this query on page 4 (as I said, there's nothing here that hasn't already been discussed in this thread ad nauseam – we're merely going around in circles for the third or fourth time):
| David wrote: | The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as passé is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.
This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete – and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion. |
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | You say trans and cis women are like apples and oranges, but can’t that be said of people in general? Hormonal levels, size and dexterity differ markedly within people of the same sex, too. |
Why don't we take what you and Tannin are arguing to it's logical conclusion?
If we are not going to take into account size, hormonal levels, genitalia etc. then why don't we eliminate all gender division in sport?
That's right. No more mens wimbledon and ladies wimbledon. Just one big pot of cash that a man (it will always be a man) gets to take home every year.
No women's track and field. Just men standing on a podium getting medals.
No AFLW. Just clubs picking the best female/male players for a single (all male) co-ed team. |
I already responded to this query on page 4 (as I said, there's nothing here that hasn't already been discussed in this thread ad nauseam – we're merely going around in circles for the third or fourth time):
| David wrote: | The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as passé is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.
This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete – and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion. |
|
they could have competed in the mens division before they transitioned. maybe they were not good enough.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking. |
thats bullshit David, no one is saying that, not one person has said anything derogatory here.
forward thinking or running scared?
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| What kind of people? |
|
|
|
|
thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
|
| Post subject: | |
|
No. Just trying to establish to what extent you privilege trans ideology over woman's rights.
What if the offender who identifies as a woman still has dangly bits and has past rape (of women) convictions? |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking. |
thats bullshit David, no one is saying that, not one person has said anything derogatory here. |
Whether or not anyone here openly thinks that, it is the logical conclusion of their arguments – effectively, pushing transgender sportspeople into a convenient corner where they don't have to bother anyone with their presence. Otherwise, I think this is a general view that many people hold, yes.. |
I'm not arguing anything of the sort, and it's not about all transgender people. You notice there has been bugger all issues reported with women transitioning to men who want to play sport?
The issue is about the inherent physical difference between men and women which isn't changed by being transgender and whether someone who has all the physical advantages of being born and growing up male should be competing at the elite level against females.
Someone who's done competitive weightlifting as a male doesn't lose their strength and size by transitioning to female.
No one cared about Hannah Mouncey playing local womens footy, it became an issue when she wanted to play at the elite level.
Considering high level athletes only have a short time frame in which to compete (normally finished by mid 30's) would it really be that big a deal to just say you are legally female, can play social sport as a female with no restrictions, but not at the elite level?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Try to rephrase your question with simpler words. |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking. |
thats bullshit David, no one is saying that, not one person has said anything derogatory here. |
Whether or not anyone here openly thinks that, it is the logical conclusion of their arguments – effectively, pushing transgender sportspeople into a convenient corner where they don't have to bother anyone with their presence. Otherwise, I think this is a general view that many people hold, yes.. |
I'm not arguing anything of the sort, and it's not about all transgender people. You notice there has been bugger all issues reported with women transitioning to men who want to play sport?
The issue is about the inherent physical difference between men and women which isn't changed by being transgender and whether someone who has all the physical advantages of being born and growing up male should be competing at the elite level against females.
Someone who's done competitive weightlifting as a male doesn't lose their strength and size by transitioning to female.
No one cared about Hannah Mouncey playing local womens footy, it became an issue when she wanted to play at the elite level.
Considering high level athletes only have a short time frame in which to compete (normally finished by mid 30's) would it really be that big a deal to just say you are legally female, can play social sport as a female with no restrictions, but not at the elite level? |
in a , huh hmm, nut shell!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking. |
thats bullshit David, no one is saying that, not one person has said anything derogatory here. |
Whether or not anyone here openly thinks that, it is the logical conclusion of their arguments – effectively, pushing transgender sportspeople into a convenient corner where they don't have to bother anyone with their presence. Otherwise, I think this is a general view that many people hold, yes.. |
I'm not arguing anything of the sort, and it's not about all transgender people. You notice there has been bugger all issues reported with women transitioning to men who want to play sport?
The issue is about the inherent physical difference between men and women which isn't changed by being transgender and whether someone who has all the physical advantages of being born and growing up male should be competing at the elite level against females.
Someone who's done competitive weightlifting as a male doesn't lose their strength and size by transitioning to female.
No one cared about Hannah Mouncey playing local womens footy, it became an issue when she wanted to play at the elite level.
Considering high level athletes only have a short time frame in which to compete (normally finished by mid 30's) would it really be that big a deal to just say you are legally female, can play social sport as a female with no restrictions, but not at the elite level? |
They can compete at the elite level at anything they like that doesn’t depend upon physical prowess. Say, debating, chess, film-making, soccer, macrame, crochet etc. |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| I will take that under consideration. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
