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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Really, WPT? Cordon all trans female athletes into a tiny ghetto of a competition that nobody watches and hardly anybody competes in, symbolising their apartness from the rest of the female sporting world? I dont understand why anyone thinks that would be a fair compromise.
I havent commented yet on this thread bump yet because its just going to be the same old arguments, but to that bronze medallist complaining about unfairness: cry me a river. You got beaten by another woman who trained hard, met the requirements for entry, was faster and fitter than you and who, like all people, possesses different physical attributes. If you dont think shes a real woman and that she entered the race under subterfuge, or that its okay for her to race as long as she doesnt win, then maybe thats something you need to go away and think about for a bit.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:49 am; edited 3 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Yes I try to beat by another woman who was and fitter than you and who like all people possesses different physical attributes as often as possible, do you? I spend all my time online. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | ^ Really, WPT? Cordon all trans female athletes into a tiny ghetto of a competition that nobody watches and hardly anybody competes in, symbolising their apartness from the rest of the female sporting world? I dont understand why anyone thinks that would be a fair compromise.
I havent commented yet on this thread bump yet because its just going to be the same old arguments, but to that bronze medallist complaining about unfairness: cry me a river. You got beaten by another woman who trained hard, met the requirements for entry, was faster and fitter than you and who, like all people, possesses different physical attributes. If you dont think shes a real woman and that she entered the race under subterfuge, or that its okay for her to race as long as she doesnt win, then maybe thats something you need to go away and think about for a bit. |
Why ghetto? The different physical attributes are more than those words suggest. The physical differences can be huge (excuse the pun) Im much more inclined to agree with Germaine Greer here than not when it comes to transgender.
Transgenders are different: to suggest not is ignoring reality. That does not mean I believe they (& I dont use a personal pronoun advisedly) ought to be vilified etc. The overt physical extremes as with the case in AWFL where in a short space of time youre playing with men then the next minute ur playing with women appears to be too big of an advantage notwithstanding the variation in body shapes and sizes.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | ^ Really, WPT? Cordon all trans female athletes into a tiny ghetto of a competition that nobody watches and hardly anybody competes in, symbolising their apartness from the rest of the female sporting world? I dont understand why anyone thinks that would be a fair compromise.
I havent commented yet on this thread bump yet because its just going to be the same old arguments, but to that bronze medallist complaining about unfairness: cry me a river. You got beaten by another woman who trained hard, met the requirements for entry, was faster and fitter than you and who, like all people, possesses different physical attributes. If you dont think shes a real woman and that she entered the race under subterfuge, or that its okay for her to race as long as she doesnt win, then maybe thats something you need to go away and think about for a bit. |
The reality is David, She is not naturally, physically a real woman. Mentally She may be, but physically She was not born that way, and whilst you may be able to add drugs and change a blood test, the DNA will still come back as male. (at least according to SVU!).
The bronze medallist has every right to feel cheated because She was.
What is wrong with seperate games?
do you feel that way about the disabled Olympics?
This, by the way, doesnt mean I dont have empathy for someone, male or female, in this situation, I do, i cant imagine what its like, however, lots of people get dealt a hand they didnt deserve, thats life, it doesnt mean that the majority should suffer, or miss out on their acheivements because of it.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| watt price tully wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Thats taking it a a little faR.
I really dont think there is an answer.
The fact is though, this female has been genetically modified to be a legal female. And thats fine, I really do believe some people are born in the wrong body. But this is no different to taking steroids, no one can look st that photo and say its fair. Show me the biggest female in the world, the fastest, and their body will still have certain mechanics that dont work the same way. Its just plain wrong.
Her rights? How about the rights of the rest of the field? Its not just about a shiny gold medal, its about the years of hard work and the sponsors dollars. |
Hold the transgender games with different divisions |
yep totally
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Same old arguments. Just reducing the amount of testosterone doesn't reduce the physical advantage someone born male and trained as an athlete has over someone born woman similarly trained
I know Rita Panahi isn't everyones cup of tea here, but I thought this was a good article on the subject.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/female-athletes-are-right-to-be-concerned-about-trans-competitors-writes-rita-panahi/news-story/174f730ff2d436072eb3eb70eab716d8
Quoted in full for those who can't get past the paywall.
| Quote: | IN this gender-fluid age of identity politics where feelings matter more than chromosomes, the fairer sex is being asked to accept athletes with an unfair advantage.
Its hardly an avalanche but slowly female athletes who were born male are beginning to make their presence felt in elite sporting circles. Some compete without their former gender being disclosed while others are proudly, and some would say obviously, transgender.
A Canadian cyclist who identifies as female, Rachel McKinnon, last week won the 2018 UCI Masters track championships in Los Angeles.
McKinnon, a philosophy professor who calls herself an internationally recognised expert on the science and ethics of transgender inclusion in sport, took to Twitter to declare, I cant believe that Im the first trans woman world champion with a picture of her on the dais looking bigger and stronger than the CIS gender women who placed second and third.
She then called any criticism of her achievement transphobic bigotry and claimed that elevated testosterone levels and male body development dont give her an unfair advantage. Indeed, McKinnon believes that testing transgender athletes testosterone levels violates their human rights.
We cannot have a woman legally recognised as a trans woman in society and not be recognised that way in sports, McKinnon said.
Focusing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant because this is a rights issue. We shouldnt be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead.
Predictably, there was a strong response on social media ranging from adulation and glowing media reports, to criticism from those who believe McKinnon had no business competing in a womens competition. Among them was third placegetter Dr Jennifer Wagner who said it was neither fair nor right.
Professor Kathleen Stock, whom McKinnon labelled a transphobic bigot, pointed out that those born male enjoy certain physical advantages when it comes to athletic prowess.
Ricky Gervais tweeted: Womens heavyweight boxing is gonna get f---ing interesting.
You beat a bunch of females, due to genetically endowed features none of them could hope to have, Prof Stock tweeted.
Comedian Ricky Gervais also mocked the historic sporting moment, posting: Yeah, shes done well there. Im sure all the women she beat will try even harder next year. He added: Womens heavyweight boxing is gonna get f---ing interesting.
Gervais has a point theres a reason why men and women have separate competitions. Men are faster, more powerful and have significantly higher levels of testosterone.
That doesnt mean a competitor born male but identifying as a woman, and undergoing gender reassignment, doesnt have to train hard to win but they go into any competition with a significant advantage. It is plainly unfair to expect women to be competitive against males in physical pursuits.
Who can forget the Williams sisters taking on the 203rd ranked male player Karsten Braasch who prepared for the match with a few drinks and cigarettes but still managed to beat Serena 6-1 and Venus 6-2 back when Venus was a top-five player.
MORE recently, the national womens soccer side, the Matildas, lost 7-0 to an under-15 boys side from Newcastle in the lead-up to the Rio Games in 2016. Matildas coach Alen Stajcic responded to criticism of the result by explaining the disadvantage females face against males, even those under 15.
At the end of the day, four of the seven goals scored last night were scored off crosses. If someone is half a foot or a foot taller than you, thats an anatomical and a biomechanical thing and you cant do anything about that.
At this years Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast, a transgender ticking time bomb was about to explode before New Zealands heavyweight weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, succumbed to an elbow injury and had to withdraw just when it looked certain shed win gold.
Hubbard used to be Gavin and competed internationally as a male before transitioning at the age of 35 and competing as a woman. Last year in Melbourne, she competed in her first major international competition and broke a number of national records on her way to winning the womens over-90kg division. She was representing NZ after beating Olympic medallist Tracey Lambrechs who, after Hubbards rise, lost 17kg to compete at a lower weight division.
Before the Commonwealth Games, her participation caused an outcry from a number of weightlifting federations, including Samoa. A man is a man and a woman is a woman and I know a lot of changes have gone through, but in the past, Laurel Hubbard used to be a male champion weightlifter, said the Samoan head coach. The strength is still there and I think its very unfair, and for all females its unfair.
Of course, anyone who doesnt embrace transgender athletes is subjected to all sorts of abuse.
New Zealand physiology professor Alison Heather believes transgender athletes have an unfair advantage, particularly given their elevated testosterone levels. The IOC allows transgender athletes to have testosterone levels up to 10 nanomoles per litre, significantly less than the average male but more than three times the level of the average women.
The physiological attributes of males that makes them naturally stronger including anatomical and biological features such as size, muscle mass, lung capacity, and heart size would be an advantage, said Heather, who has called for greater research to determine whether it is a level playing field for CIS women versus trans women.
It may be stating the bleeding obvious but men and women are different and pretending otherwise only disadvantages women. |
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Remember Mason Cox casually outmarking desperate 6-foot-plus defenders in the second quarter of the preliminary final? They couldnt lay a finger on the ball. If he held his marks more than 50% of the time, hed be near unbeatable. Is that unfair, or just a reflection of biological differences?
(On the bolded part of the quote above, I would be open to considering a lowering of the threshold of acceptable testosterone levels if it emerged that current disparities are too great. But unfortunately that still wouldnt stop people griping whenever a transgender sportsperson did well. Ultimately, people wont be happy until trans women just give up on sport altogether and live quietly on the fringes of society where they wont bother anyone, like good supplicants.)
| think positive wrote: | What is wrong with seperate games?
do you feel that way about the disabled Olympics? |
I already explained above: itd be essentially sticking them into a tiny sporting ghetto. How many elite trans female athletes do you think there are in the world? And if such a competition got off the ground, would you watch it and support it? Not likely.
(Interesting analogy, btw: women and people with disabilities.  )
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | Remember Mason Cox casually outmarking desperate 6-foot-plus defenders in the second quarter of the preliminary final? They couldnt lay a finger on the ball. If he held his marks more than 50% of the time, hed be near unbeatable. Is that unfair, or just a reflection of biological differences?
(On the bolded part of the quote above, I would be open to considering a lowering of the threshold of acceptable testosterone levels if it emerged that current disparities are too great. But unfortunately that still wouldnt stop people griping whenever a transgender sportsperson did well. Ultimately, people wont be happy until trans women just give up on sport altogether and live quietly on the fringes of society where they wont bother anyone, like good supplicants.)
| think positive wrote: | What is wrong with seperate games?
do you feel that way about the disabled Olympics? |
I already explained above: itd be essentially sticking them into a tiny sporting ghetto. How many elite trans female athletes do you think there are in the world? And if such a competition got off the ground, would you watch it and support it? Not likely.
(Interesting analogy, btw: women and people with disabilities. ) |
Have it publicised, promoted, funded, broadcast, have the PM & the Royal Family open it. There are so many sub groups in the intersex, transgender groups then that could be the basis of divisions. Have the Christian Lobby fund it. Mainstream it.
On a serious note testosterone levels has to be part of sporting competition.
Mason Cox is transgender, well f*ck me, Ill be buggered.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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The bit I don't get is why we are even thinking about "fairness".
Suppose testosterone levels are the only variable that matters. (They aren't, but suppose that for simplicity.)
Alice is born female in all respects. She has a T level of 40.
Betty is born female in all respects. She has a T level of 60.
Carol is born female in all respects. She has a T level of 90.
Clearly, Carol has an advantage. She has a bigger heart, larger muscles, and so on. But they all start off the same marker. How is this fair?
Now along comes Denise. Denise was born male and transitioned. Whatever her current T level, she had a very high level as a child. She too has the bigger heart and so on. She has an advantage over even Carol.
And so on. Endlessly.
How do you draw a line and say "below this line you are OK, above this line you ain't"? You can't. Not unless you admit that the line is 100% arbitrary and has nothing at all to do with fairness.
It's a total clusterf__k.
Bit like shepherding off the ball decisions, really.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Remember Mason Cox casually outmarking desperate 6-foot-plus defenders in the second quarter of the preliminary final? They couldnt lay a finger on the ball. If he held his marks more than 50% of the time, hed be near unbeatable. Is that unfair, or just a reflection of biological differences? |
Cox is tall yes. In a team sport he plays a role that his height suits.
Despite his height, he's not as physically strong as most of his opponents and they can use that to their advantage.
It hardly compares to individual sports that require specific power attributes such as cycling, weightlifting or sprinting.
Comparing the diversity within males (and or females) to the difference in physical attributes between males and females just doesn't work. It's apples and oranges.
If we can accept that a person who was born with the biological sex of a man can become a woman, why is it so hard to accept that they maintain a physical advantage over people born biological women? Or is that just the inherent disconnect between humanities and science?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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http://caldronpool.com/transgender-mma-fighter-breaks-female-opponents-skull-is-it-now-ok-for-a-man-to-hit-a-woman/
| Quote: | | Ive fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I cant answer whether its because she was born a man or not because Im not a doctor. I can only say, Ive never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isnt fair. |
Same should go for any full contact sport. Even the strongest women can't compete equally with those who were born male. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | | If we can accept that a person who was born with the biological sex of a man can become a woman, why is it so hard to accept that they maintain a physical advantage over people born biological women? Or is that just the inherent disconnect between humanities and science? |
Where do the humanities come into what you wrote?
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | If we can accept that a person who was born with the biological sex of a man can become a woman, why is it so hard to accept that they maintain a physical advantage over people born biological women? Or is that just the inherent disconnect between humanities and science? |
But we know that. The point is that there are all kinds of biological advantages and disadvantages in competitive sport. A transgender woman may possess a larger cocktail of those factors, but ultimately, as Tannin says above, where do you draw the line? If there was an abnormally strong, tall and bulky candidate for the male AFL draft, would we dream of barring them from competition? On what principle? Does anyone look at Usain Bolts total dominance of running events and think he shouldnt be competing? You say trans and cis women are like apples and oranges, but cant that be said of people in general? Hormonal levels, size and dexterity differ markedly within people of the same sex, too. Are Bolt and, say, your average male Melbourne Cup jockey really apples and apples in any meaningful sense other than their shared gender?
When it comes to science, by the way, I really dont see a lot of understanding of the science of gender dysphoria or sex difference in most critiques of transgender sport participation. Most peoples knowledge of this topic is pretty unsophisticated and more or less ends with men have penises and women have vaginas.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | You say trans and cis women are like apples and oranges, but cant that be said of people in general? Hormonal levels, size and dexterity differ markedly within people of the same sex, too. |
Why don't we take what you and Tannin are arguing to it's logical conclusion?
If we are not going to take into account size, hormonal levels, genitalia etc. then why don't we eliminate all gender division in sport?
That's right. No more mens wimbledon and ladies wimbledon. Just one big pot of cash that a man (it will always be a man) gets to take home every year.
No women's track and field. Just men standing on a podium getting medals.
No AFLW. Just clubs picking the best female/male players for a single (all male) co-ed team. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Tennis.
Why do women play best of three and not five?
Stamina, strength, speed, all these things are easier to get to for a male, thats an absolute fact. And when either sex get to the top of that hill the male is a lot higher up. You may get the occasional freak, like Bolt for instance, but still he is a male competing against males.
There are certain facts you cant change David, no matter how many operations how many drugs you take.
You want to be a champion athlete, compete against those with the body you were born with.
And that female tennis player people ask the questions of? I bet she still cant last a five setter with the guys no matter her natural hormone levels. Good on her. Just like Bolt.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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