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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:58 pm
Post subject: Transgender athletes back on the agendaReply with quote

Quote:
Kiwi weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has dominated her first major competition, taking out the Australian International in Melbourne on a night she made history as the first transgender athlete to represent New Zealand.

Hubbard, 39, won the women's over 90kg division at the Melbourne event, setting four unofficial national records in the process. Hubbard lifted a combined total of 268kg - 19kg better than silver medallist Iuniarra Sipaia of Samoa.

Australia's Kaitlyn Fassina claimed the bronze medal with 223kg.

Hubbard looked visibly emotional as she lined up behind dais awaiting the official medal presentation. But she kept the tears at bay, smiling and waving as she stood atop the podium.

Earlier this month the Herald revealed Hubbard had been selected to make her international debut at the competition after usurping Rio Olympian Tracey Lambrechs at the top of the division.

Hubbard's selection was a considered a pioneering moment in sport for the LBGT community. Further ground could yet be broken, with tonight's performance in Melbourne expected to go a long way to securing Hubbard's place in the team for the Gold Coast Commonwealth Games next year.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399

Apparently both her and the NW weightlifting mob have ensured that every box has been ticked, in particular her testosterone levels.

however, the argument about fairness has again been raised particularly in light of her age at debut (39) and that she transitioned in her early 30's.

I don't have an opinion really on this, I can see both sides of the argument.
Did spending the first 30+ years as a male and competing at a national level in mens weightlifting during that time give her an unfair advantage once she transitioned?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/34720066/kiwi-transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbards-win-causes-stir-among-female-aussie-competitors/#page1

It's not like she transitioned first then took up a sport.

She's legally female and ticked all the boxes to compete, but is it "fair"?


(NB, I have a reasonably well documented disdain for people who throw up arguments about fairness. It normally comes from basic jealousy that someone has something that they don't. I added this as a qualifier, lets see how many people can't get past it.)

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:44 pm
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To paraphrase a post from another Nickster in an earlier thread about this topic, should we ban East Africans from distance running events, where they seem to have a clear physical advantage over everyone else?

A transgender woman may, in some cases, have certain physical advantages over other women. Likewise, Patrick Dangerfield has a physical advantage over Josh Daicos, and Serena Williams has a physical advantage over Samantha Stosur. Such is competitive sport. Beyond that, anyone who is legally a woman is a woman and, if she's good enough, deserves the chance to compete in her sporting code at the highest level.

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:16 am
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Nah, it's wrong.

I agree with Brandon Morse...

http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/27/allowing-transgender-olympians-is-unfair-to-women/

Quote:
In some sports, mixing male and female may not affect the outcome, such as tennis, equestrian sports, or curling, but in many others this is not the case. Men typically outpace women when running, lifting, throwing, jumping, etc. If men can claim to be women and invade a sport that only women are allowed to compete in, then it’s a safe bet men will win. All the accolades, rewards, and recognition will be taken from the women who rightfully deserve them and given to a man who essentially cheated by putting on makeup, injecting himself with hormones, and saying he’s a woman.




Quote:
Critics are scrutinizing mixed martial arts (MMA) competitor Fallon Fox, after the transgender fighter gave her opponent a concussion and broke her eye socket.

Fox defeated her opponent, Tamikka Brents, by TKO at 2:17 of the first round of their match. Brent’s eye injury resulted in a damaged orbital bone that required seven staples.



Read more: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/transgender-mma-fighter-destroys-female-opponent/#ixzz4buWdVwx6
Follow us: @TheLibRepublic on Twitter


What's next.... <snip – transphobic slurs are not acceptable.> round in the AFL?

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:49 am
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In response to the first article above, trans women are not "men claiming to be women".

We're not talking about some man deciding to put a dress on for a day and claiming to be a woman; transgender women in professional competition are people who, according to most sporting body rules, have lived as women for some time, taken hormones to reduce their testosterone levels and been assessed by one or more psychologists as suitable candidates for hormone replacement therapy and gender transition. They are legally (and in every other relevant sense) considered to be women.

It's incredibly cynical of conservatives like this writer to bring up a woman being KO'd in a UFC fight as evidence of the unfairness of letting trans women compete. This is a sport in which women with biceps the size of my head punch and kick each other in the face until the loser falls to the ground in a bleeding mess. And yet, this writer would have us believe that the woman who lost this particular fight was a poor damsel in distress who was "savaged" by a woman who happened to be transgender. Give me a break!

I don't deny that some – but certainly a long way from all – trans women will have inherent physical advantages when playing sport. But sport is not an even playing field. When 229 cm Yao Ming steps on the basketball court, his shorter opponents are immediately disadvantaged. Is this unfair?

So long as sporting organisations are sufficiently convinced that a trans woman is actually legally a woman and has gone through the required steps to demonstrate that she is committed to this transition, then they are right to let her compete in her sporting code of choice. Her physique will simply be part of the broad spectrum of female physiques in her sport. Her opponents will have to treat her like any other opponent and work out how to beat her. I don't think there's any problem with that.

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:15 am
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David wrote:
In response to the first article above, trans women are not "men claiming to be women".

We're not talking about some man deciding to put a dress on for a day and claiming to be a woman; transgender women in professional competition are people who, according to most sporting body rules, have lived as women for some time, taken hormones to reduce their testosterone levels and been assessed by one or more psychologists as suitable candidates for hormone replacement therapy and gender transition. They are legally (and in every other relevant sense) considered to be women.

It's incredibly cynical of conservatives like this writer to bring up a woman being KO'd in a UFC fight as evidence of the unfairness of letting trans women compete. This is a sport in which women with biceps the size of my head punch and kick each other in the face until the loser falls to the ground in a bleeding mess. And yet, this writer would have us believe that the woman who lost this particular fight was a poor damsel in distress who was "savaged" by a woman who happened to be transgender. Give me a break!

I don't deny that some – but certainly a long way from all – trans women will have inherent physical advantages when playing sport. But sport is not an even playing field. When 229 cm Yao Ming steps on the basketball court, his shorter opponents are immediately disadvantaged. Is this unfair?

So long as sporting organisations are sufficiently convinced that a trans woman is actually legally a woman and has gone through the required steps to demonstrate that she is committed to this transition, then they are right to let her compete in her sporting code of choice. Her physique will simply be part of the broad spectrum of female physiques in her sport. Her opponents will have to treat her like any other opponent and work out how to beat her. I don't think there's any problem with that.


No, he's a man competing against other men. The smaller players have a dribbling and ball control advantage. That comparison is ridiculous.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:30 am
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edit, in response to David: i dont think its that black and white (is that racist!!)
She transgendered in her early thirties, certainly would have had all the male body advantages by that time. Who knows how much was lost in the change?

the comment in the article about her looking visibly emotional is not necessary, anyone who wins gold could be so effected.

Yes no doubt shes had a tough time, didnt change just to win a medal, but spare a thought for the women who have trained, given their all, taken the correct steroids, whatever, to get to the top. im not sure i want to tell them to "deal with it". its not just strength, its speed, its jumping, its all of it, something a male body is more tuned to do than a female body, and some of those attributes dont go away.

and just for your info, that 229cm basketballer may have a height advantage, but put talented defenders around him, and he might not be able to move to get the ball, its a team event, you can strategise around it, its not a game built purely one on one, seen it on the court many times. a one on one competition is going to be so different. you cant compare.

part of your last paragraph David,
"So long as sporting organisations are sufficiently convinced that a trans woman is actually legally a woman and has gone through the required steps to demonstrate that she is committed to this transition, then they are right to let her compete in her sporting code of choice."

the question Stui asked was:

She's legally female and ticked all the boxes to compete, but is it "fair"?

lots of things in life are legal but not fair, fair is probably an opinion rather than a set way of thinking,

IMO its not fair. and if it was me in second spot, id feel ripped off.

you often put yourself in the scenario, as in," im not very big, women could beat me, im not calling not fair" but if you entered that sport and didnt prepare appropriately, then its stupidity not fairness.

if an athlete does the best they can, and still gets beat fair and square, youd hope they would be gracious about it. if an athlete has done the best they can and is beaten by say, those chinese swimmers for example, thats not fair, not legal either mind you. just because the law states the medicine they take to transform is legal, doesnt make it fair.

thats answering the question asked. not the question you made it in to.

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luvdids Sagittarius



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:52 am
Post subject: Re: Transgender athletes back on the agendaReply with quote

stui magpie wrote:

(NB, I have a reasonably well documented disdain for people who throw up arguments about fairness. It normally comes from basic jealousy that someone has something that they don't. I added this as a qualifier, lets see how many people can't get past it.)


think positive wrote:
IMO its not fair. and if it was me in second spot, id feel ripped off.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:29 pm
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think positive wrote:

if an athlete does the best they can, and still gets beat fair and square, youd hope they would be gracious about it. if an athlete has done the best they can and is beaten by say, those chinese swimmers for example, thats not fair, not legal either mind you. just because the law states the medicine they take to transform is legal, doesnt make it fair


It's interesting you bring up the performance-enhancing drugs comparison here, because as we know (and as you acknowledged above in your reference to the, good lord, "correct steroids") the line between permitted and banned substances in professional sport is a pretty grey one in this day and age, and the only real arbiter of these matters are sporting codes and higher authorities like WADA – the same bodies that now permit transgender athletes to compete!

So this is really less of a moral question than where a professional sporting code chooses to draw the line. We know now that Essendon weren't doing fundamentally different things to other clubs (Dank, after all, had already been at Gold Coast and Geelong giving those players magic potions); they were just the ones who went too far. If our players get calf blood injections or whatever crazy things football clubs force on their players these days, do they have an unfair advantage over a club that's not quite as much on the, ahem, "cutting edge"? In professional sport, these questions are becoming increasingly academic.

One thing worth pointing out is that male to female transgender athletes are effectively on performance-reducing drugs, which have the effect of bringing them back down to the rest of the playing field. Given the situation I've described above, that's about as fair as you could ask for in a modern professional sporting competition.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:39 pm
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i was being a smart arse with the steroids use thing, its cheating, essendon cheated, cheating isnt fair.

performance maybe reduced, but is it reduced enough and across the board?

rights. everyone wants, has, needs rights.

but they aint reserved just for minority groups.

those female athletes have a right to compete on an equal playing field, and competing against someone who used to be a male with all the extra abitlity that allows for, is not fair.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Transgender athletes back on the agendaReply with quote

luvdids wrote:
stui magpie wrote:

(NB, I have a reasonably well documented disdain for people who throw up arguments about fairness. It normally comes from basic jealousy that someone has something that they don't. I added this as a qualifier, lets see how many people can't get past it.)


think positive wrote:
IMO its not fair. and if it was me in second spot, id feel ripped off.


yes thanks, i saw his disclaimer however as i also pointed out to David the question is the bit with the question mark on the end, and the question was IS IT FAIR?

and i also pointed out that fair is really an opinion thing, not an exact science.

and i can also assure you i have never had any kind of desire, burning or otherwise, to possess a dick, not even when peeing in the bush, so not sure what you think i might be envious of?

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:23 pm
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think positive wrote:
i was being a smart arse with the steroids use thing, its cheating, essendon cheated, cheating isnt fair.

performance maybe reduced, but is it reduced enough and across the board?

rights. everyone wants, has, needs rights.

but they aint reserved just for minority groups.

those female athletes have a right to compete on an equal playing field, and competing against someone who used to be a male with all the extra abitlity that allows for, is not fair.


What's an equal playing field, though? We've already established that players will have different heights, strengths, body shapes and capabilities. So isn't the idea of an equal playing field a bit of an illusion?

When I think of an 'equal playing field', I think all I can ask is that the players all compete under the same rules. It goes without saying that the players themselves will never be equal, which is why every sport has its stars and its also-rans (and many of the latter through no lack of effort on their part) – whether at the Olympic Games or at a local tennis club. Sometimes it doesn't matter how many weights you lift or how hard you try; some people just have physical advantages. It has always been thus.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:08 pm
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David wrote:
think positive wrote:
i was being a smart arse with the steroids use thing, its cheating, essendon cheated, cheating isnt fair.

performance maybe reduced, but is it reduced enough and across the board?

rights. everyone wants, has, needs rights.

but they aint reserved just for minority groups.

those female athletes have a right to compete on an equal playing field, and competing against someone who used to be a male with all the extra abitlity that allows for, is not fair.


What's an equal playing field, though? We've already established that players will have different heights, strengths, body shapes and capabilities. So isn't the idea of an equal playing field a bit of an illusion?

When I think of an 'equal playing field', I think all I can ask is that the players all compete under the same rules. It goes without saying that the players themselves will never be equal, which is why every sport has its stars and its also-rans (and many of the latter through no lack of effort on their part) – whether at the Olympic Games or at a local tennis club. Sometimes it doesn't matter how many weights you lift or how hard you try; some people just have physical advantages. It has always been thus.


i get your point, i get the transgender persons point,

however i also get the point of the athletes that came 2nd and 3rd.

if you ask my head, it would probably say "tough titties, thats the rules" because i am a stickler for rules, even ones i dont think are fair,

however by asking me if i think its fair, in my mind your asking my heart, and my heart says no.

its nice for peoples dreams to come true. whether your a minority or not.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:30 pm
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David wrote:
think positive wrote:
i was being a smart arse with the steroids use thing, its cheating, essendon cheated, cheating isnt fair.

performance maybe reduced, but is it reduced enough and across the board?

rights. everyone wants, has, needs rights.

but they aint reserved just for minority groups.

those female athletes have a right to compete on an equal playing field, and competing against someone who used to be a male with all the extra abitlity that allows for, is not fair.


What's an equal playing field, though? We've already established that players will have different heights, strengths, body shapes and capabilities. So isn't the idea of an equal playing field a bit of an illusion?

When I think of an 'equal playing field', I think all I can ask is that the players all compete under the same rules. It goes without saying that the players themselves will never be equal, which is why every sport has its stars and its also-rans (and many of the latter through no lack of effort on their part) – whether at the Olympic Games or at a local tennis club. Sometimes it doesn't matter how many weights you lift or how hard you try; some people just have physical advantages. It has always been thus.


I'll chime in on this point. Comparing participants in team sports to those in individual sports is apples and oranges.

Brodie grundy has a physical advantage over Josh Daicos if they were both looking to play ruck. The reverse is true for a small forward.

Some people are always bigger, stronger, faster or smarter than others. We aren't all the same, no arguments. People use their positives to their advantage, or should.

The specific case I put forward is weightlifting. A sport where natural advantages are minimised.

People compete against the same gender, within a body weight category. So little people are competing against people of the same body weight, not big buggers. That's where David's argument fails.

In a straight test of strength, where all else is equal (body weight, training, skill and aptitude) a man will beat a woman every time. The history of athletics records proves this. Running, jumping, throwing, lifting, there is not a single instance where the best woman is better than the best man.

That by the way is not to disparage women, it's simply pointing out facts of bio physics and bio chemistry. Men and Women aren't the same physically or chemically.

So a man who transitions later in life to a female does have a potentially unfair physical advantage in competition against women IMHO. How to deal with that is a different discussion

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:00 am
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Really good article in the Herald Sun.

Quote:
VICTORIA’S first openly transgender footballer says she believes a transgender woman will soon play in the AFLW competition.

Emily Rowe, 35, will later this year play for the Shepparton Bears in the new Northern Country Women’s League (scroll down for special report).

She has spent her life playing with teams from Jerilderie to Wodonga to the VAFA’s South Melbourne Districts before transitioning from man to woman last August.

The AFL says it is ready to rule on the legality of a transgender player being accepted into the AFLW.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/aflw/emily-rowe-first-openly-transgender-footballer-believes-a-transgender-woman-will-soon-play-aflw/news-story/fd1c816c2d635e4518d9f959eed890c0

If you can get around the fire wall, well worth a read.

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Bucks5 Capricorn



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:41 pm
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Latest update on a transgender footballer preparing to try out for the AFLW.... Sorry about the firewall

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/expert-opinion/jon-ralph/afl-can-take-lead-on-gender-debate/news-story/db8ee1cf85fd3920292102b924604b0a

AFL can take lead on gender debate
JON RALPH, Herald Sun
June 24, 2017 11:16am
Subscriber only

FOOTBALL’S proudest achievement has been helping combat racism against its ­indigenous players.

The battles against sexism and homophobia are more challenging domains and ­remain a work in progress.

The league is about to break new ground again as a transgender woman prepares to try out for the AFLW.

She will trial at several Victorian clubs in the next fortnight with the backing of the AFL and players’ union.

At the moment she remains anonymous — more intent on proving her worth as a footballer than confronting a wave of publicity or controversy.

No one needed reminding, anyway, that the issues of transgender men and women are still misunderstood in ­society, but Sam Newman’s sad cry for ratings and outrage was yet another illustration of why so many transgender sportsmen and women remain silent.

The woman in question rose through the junior ranks of football as a boy, then represented Australia in another sport before becoming a woman.

Approved by the International Olympic Committee as a transgender woman — with testosterone far below the accepted level — there is no impediment to her playing AFLW.

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