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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Firstly MM thanks so much for your hard work. It's interesting to read the ever evolving end of season stuff.
For mine (and it's only an opinion) outside of the structural issues we need to be realistic about our entire list.
The questions that need to be asked and answered honestly are
1. Which players will be keys in our next premiership window
2. Which players haven't shown the necessary improvement to remain on the list
3. What style of play can the we play with the cattle we have
4. What do we need to add to our list to fix our structural issues
5. How can we remain active in the draft whilst improving our list for 2018
As harsh it may sound we have a few players on our list who whilst are good players they aren't going to improve enough to be key planks in our next premiership window. Yes we need all types of cattle but players like Blair (and I'm not singling him out here) for all his effort and desire just isn't a AFL level player.
Things that concern me with our list currently (ignoring structural issues)
1. Varcoe has become very injury prone in the past 2 seasons. His body isn't getting any younger
2. Wells needs a big off season and to turn up ready to go in 2018. If we can't get more then 9 games out of him in 2018 the whole episode had been another failure. Does he have the desire to have that big off season ?
3. JDG has shown the glimpses of what he can be but does he have the mental toughness to work as hard as it takes to become the player we thing he can be ? He's like Swanny in some ways he likes to be a individual and live life off the field but the difference is he hasn't shown the same level of performance as Swanny did at the same stage of his career.
4. Phillips needs kicking lessons badly. You can't knock his effort or ability to run all day but he has nil kicking skills off the left side of his body. This has to be improved markedly or he simply can't cut it at AFL level
5. Sidey I thought his second half of the season may have been his best in terms of playing a selfless team game. Those frustrating dinky kicks we're shelved and he took the safer more team focused options. My concern is that he's in his prime right now yet on the pure stats his on a downward slide. In the past 3 seasons he's fallen (on champion data stats) from the 31st rated midfielder to 53rd. Yes the stats can be skewed as he has been asked to play various roles but key stats like inside 50 entries to advantage have fallen by 32%, score involvements have fallen by 29%, bounces per game have fallen 38%, meters gained per game fallen by 24% & 1%ers have fallen by 19% over the past 3 seasons. For a outside midfield player who's primary job is to set up play for our forwards, move the ball forward & impact the scoreboard those stats for mine are alarming. I'm unsure whether this decline is to do with our team style and structure or a player who's peaked/plateaued and we've seen all he has to offer.
I'm not knocking any of the above players but if this team is to start making finals and challenging for flags those players mentioned above are vital to our chances. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | Firstly MM thanks so much for your hard work. It's interesting to read the ever evolving end of season stuff.
For mine (and it's only an opinion) outside of the structural issues we need to be realistic about our entire list.
The questions that need to be asked and answered honestly are
1. Which players will be keys in our next premiership window
2. Which players haven't shown the necessary improvement to remain on the list
3. What style of play can the we play with the cattle we have
4. What do we need to add to our list to fix our structural issues
5. How can we remain active in the draft whilst improving our list for 2018
As harsh it may sound we have a few players on our list who whilst are good players they aren't going to improve enough to be key planks in our next premiership window. Yes we need all types of cattle but players like Blair (and I'm not singling him out here) for all his effort and desire just isn't a AFL level player.
Things that concern me with our list currently (ignoring structural issues)
1. Varcoe has become very injury prone in the past 2 seasons. His body isn't getting any younger
2. Wells needs a big off season and to turn up ready to go in 2018. If we can't get more then 9 games out of him in 2018 the whole episode had been another failure. Does he have the desire to have that big off season ?
3. JDG has shown the glimpses of what he can be but does he have the mental toughness to work as hard as it takes to become the player we thing he can be ? He's like Swanny in some ways he likes to be a individual and live life off the field but the difference is he hasn't shown the same level of performance as Swanny did at the same stage of his career.
4. Phillips needs kicking lessons badly. You can't knock his effort or ability to run all day but he has nil kicking skills off the left side of his body. This has to be improved markedly or he simply can't cut it at AFL level
5. Sidey I thought his second half of the season may have been his best in terms of playing a selfless team game. Those frustrating dinky kicks we're shelved and he took the safer more team focused options. My concern is that he's in his prime right now yet on the pure stats his on a downward slide. In the past 3 seasons he's fallen (on champion data stats) from the 31st rated midfielder to 53rd. Yes the stats can be skewed as he has been asked to play various roles but key stats like inside 50 entries to advantage have fallen by 32%, score involvements have fallen by 29%, bounces per game have fallen 38%, meters gained per game fallen by 24% & 1%ers have fallen by 19% over the past 3 seasons. For a outside midfield player who's primary job is to set up play for our forwards, move the ball forward & impact the scoreboard those stats for mine are alarming. I'm unsure whether this decline is to do with our team style and structure or a player who's peaked/plateaued and we've seen all he has to offer.
I'm not knocking any of the above players but if this team is to start making finals and challenging for flags those players mentioned above are vital to our chances. |
i always love people who think certain people cannot play in a premiership team.
I especially love it when the first person they quote is, in fact, a premiership player!!!!! And the last one for that matter!!!!
Truth is that every premiership team has a list of 40 odd players and some of them aren't your idea of a premiership player. some of them, in the right team, end up premiership players.
Swan was hated until he was loved. So was Leigh Brown! So was James Manson! you cant predict what greoup of players will find the right chemistry to become a premiership team. I'd be loath to predict who on the current list can become one.
I dont think Phillips, DeGoey and Sidebottom are the issue! I think rather than trying to find out what our players cant do, we should look at the holes in the team and how to fix them.
Just get a couple of good forwards and we are premiers. Add a Franklin or a Kennedy to our team this year and we would be still playing. Of that i am certain.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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| E wrote: | | MightyMagpie wrote: | Dredging through various media reports and the position seems to be that the 2 picks / 4 years future pick trading restriction comes in in 2019 for the first four year block of 2015-2018 so we could potentially still trade 2017 and 2018 firsts and then suffer any consequent restrictions post 2019 if the AFL doesn't exempt us.
AFL arguably should not approve any trade that would (likely) lead to non-compliance with 2 picks / 4 years, but they have shown with Geelong they won't do that.
That is, we wouldn't be compliant with the 2 picks in four years (2015-2018 in this case), but the consequence (restrictions post 2019) is not severe enough to disincentivise doing it. Makes a farce of the rule attempting to restrict trading too many first rounders especially since it appears that you can in fact trade away every first rounder from 2015 onwards even after 2019 just by trading it in the current year (not as a future pick). It begs the question of why they bothered to have it as a supposed restriction.
Anyway, this is great news in the short term as we can potentially trade 2017 and 2018 firsts (eg Lynch, Lever) and pay the price (restrictions) down the track. |
if you want to understand the reason for the restriction, check out the Knicks. In the NBA they try to make sure you cant trade away the next ten years of your franchise!!
Still not without problems. the Brooklyn Nets did a stupid trade where they traded first round picks in 2016 and 2018 to Boston, BUT even worse, they agreed to a swap with Boston of first rounders in 2017. The result. In 2017, Boston got the number 1 pick and gave the nets the 28 pick.
Effectively gave away three top 3 draft picks for a bunch of soon to be retired mugs. Easily the worst deal in history.
The truth is that bad clubs with bad administrations need to be protected from themselves so that their fans can at least have HOPe when their team sucks!
I qualify this by noting that high draft picks REALLY matter in the NBA (as great players are usually only found in the top 10). It matters much less so in footy because a team needs 18 spots and guys are drafted at such a young age you dont know what their full potential really is.! |
I had assumed that was the purpose, BUT ...
The thing is this restriction does NOT stop this. We can trade away current and next year firsts from 2015-2018 and then from 2019 we can still trade each year's current first even if we haven't made 2 first round picks in the previous 4 years. So we could trade away firsts into eternity and never make a first round pick. It is farce.
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All We Can Be
Last edited by MightyMagpie on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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| E wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | Firstly MM thanks so much for your hard work. It's interesting to read the ever evolving end of season stuff.
For mine (and it's only an opinion) outside of the structural issues we need to be realistic about our entire list.
The questions that need to be asked and answered honestly are
1. Which players will be keys in our next premiership window
2. Which players haven't shown the necessary improvement to remain on the list
3. What style of play can the we play with the cattle we have
4. What do we need to add to our list to fix our structural issues
5. How can we remain active in the draft whilst improving our list for 2018
As harsh it may sound we have a few players on our list who whilst are good players they aren't going to improve enough to be key planks in our next premiership window. Yes we need all types of cattle but players like Blair (and I'm not singling him out here) for all his effort and desire just isn't a AFL level player.
Things that concern me with our list currently (ignoring structural issues)
1. Varcoe has become very injury prone in the past 2 seasons. His body isn't getting any younger
2. Wells needs a big off season and to turn up ready to go in 2018. If we can't get more then 9 games out of him in 2018 the whole episode had been another failure. Does he have the desire to have that big off season ?
3. JDG has shown the glimpses of what he can be but does he have the mental toughness to work as hard as it takes to become the player we thing he can be ? He's like Swanny in some ways he likes to be a individual and live life off the field but the difference is he hasn't shown the same level of performance as Swanny did at the same stage of his career.
4. Phillips needs kicking lessons badly. You can't knock his effort or ability to run all day but he has nil kicking skills off the left side of his body. This has to be improved markedly or he simply can't cut it at AFL level
5. Sidey I thought his second half of the season may have been his best in terms of playing a selfless team game. Those frustrating dinky kicks we're shelved and he took the safer more team focused options. My concern is that he's in his prime right now yet on the pure stats his on a downward slide. In the past 3 seasons he's fallen (on champion data stats) from the 31st rated midfielder to 53rd. Yes the stats can be skewed as he has been asked to play various roles but key stats like inside 50 entries to advantage have fallen by 32%, score involvements have fallen by 29%, bounces per game have fallen 38%, meters gained per game fallen by 24% & 1%ers have fallen by 19% over the past 3 seasons. For a outside midfield player who's primary job is to set up play for our forwards, move the ball forward & impact the scoreboard those stats for mine are alarming. I'm unsure whether this decline is to do with our team style and structure or a player who's peaked/plateaued and we've seen all he has to offer.
I'm not knocking any of the above players but if this team is to start making finals and challenging for flags those players mentioned above are vital to our chances. |
i always love people who think certain people cannot play in a premiership team.
I especially love it when the first person they quote is, in fact, a premiership player!!!!! And the last one for that matter!!!!
Truth is that every premiership team has a list of 40 odd players and some of them aren't your idea of a premiership player. some of them, in the right team, end up premiership players.
Swan was hated until he was loved. So was Leigh Brown! So was James Manson! you cant predict what greoup of players will find the right chemistry to become a premiership team. I'd be loath to predict who on the current list can become one.
I dont think Phillips, DeGoey and Sidebottom are the issue! I think rather than trying to find out what our players cant do, we should look at the holes in the team and how to fix them.
Just get a couple of good forwards and we are premiers. Add a Franklin or a Kennedy to our team this year and we would be still playing. Of that i am certain. |
Just get the winning Tattslotto numbers the night before the draw and we can win Tattslotto.
Just invest in the fledgling business before it takes off and we will make billions.
Just get a couple of good forwards and we are premiers.
If we "just" have to do that, why hasn't it been done? Could it possibly be that it's not that easy?
I was at a Geelong function years ago. The Geelong coach was addressing the smallish room about why Hawthorn had defeated them the week before. He said "they are not much better than us, if Dunstall and Brereton were playing for us we would have beaten them". I couldn't help saying to my Geelong supporting neighbour "this bloke is a f***wit". There was general consensus in relation to that except for the woman sitting opposite me, next to the spare chair. She glared at me. When her husband finished his speech he returned to his seat. |
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Cruisinwithdids
Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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| For a team that has just come 13th and gone through a 'comprehensive' review, there doesn't appear to be the winds of change blowing through the Collingwood footy club. The coach has been re appointed, older players have been re signed, one bloke who wasn't getting a game has retired and one coaching staffer has moved himself. Other than offering up the head of Pert (prior to the review), nothing decisive has happened. All clubs need to improve to stay the same as the prior year. I'm just not sure what Collingwood are planning on doing to seriously improve in 2018. |
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nashy17 
Nashy17
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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If Collingwood kicks one goal more in every one of the 23 rounds they play finals. Maybe a radical reshape is not what is needed.
Getting players on the park. The Buckley era has been cruelled by injury and this year no less. My suggestion is not that Collingwood are unlucky but need to manage fitness better (another 8 games from Wells would have been handy). Richmond have one injured player.
We certainly need a more certain forward line plan. Reid came into to the forward line late after planning preseason as a back. There is a lot to like about the Collingwood forward line. Hopefully the pressure gets sorted and enough big forwards get in and stay in there to create some synergy.
My other thing is changers - they kill us.
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Go pies |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Try putting that in a more specific context. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| nashy17 wrote: | If Collingwood kicks one goal more in every one of the 23 rounds they play finals. Maybe a radical reshape is not what is needed.
Getting players on the park. The Buckley era has been cruelled by injury and this year no less. My suggestion is not that Collingwood are unlucky but need to manage fitness better (another 8 games from Wells would have been handy). Richmond have one injured player.
We certainly need a more certain forward line plan. Reid came into to the forward line late after planning preseason as a back. There is a lot to like about the Collingwood forward line. Hopefully the pressure gets sorted and enough big forwards get in and stay in there to create some synergy.
My other thing is changers - they kill us. |
I think we were ok for injuries this year. Wells was always going to be a question mark. I was also very pleased with our fitness levels, we ran out games and the season well.
The issue we had is that it took time for us to get close to our best team on the field, with a few players returning from long-term injuries and one from a bone-headed suspension.
We fielded a pretty weak team in the early rounds and probably played above ourselves than below. And the big one is Elliott, whenever he was out we struggled.
Towards the end of the year, even though we had Pendlebury out (and later some others), the rest of the team was quite settled and had built up some cohesion, resulting in better performances. Continuity is pretty much all we need to make the 8. The squad is good enough. To genuinely compete we need a bit more, but are not too far away given the evenness of the comp.
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Well done boys! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | nashy17 wrote: | If Collingwood kicks one goal more in every one of the 23 rounds they play finals. Maybe a radical reshape is not what is needed.
Getting players on the park. The Buckley era has been cruelled by injury and this year no less. My suggestion is not that Collingwood are unlucky but need to manage fitness better (another 8 games from Wells would have been handy). Richmond have one injured player.
We certainly need a more certain forward line plan. Reid came into to the forward line late after planning preseason as a back. There is a lot to like about the Collingwood forward line. Hopefully the pressure gets sorted and enough big forwards get in and stay in there to create some synergy.
My other thing is changers - they kill us. |
I think we were ok for injuries this year. Wells was always going to be a question mark. I was also very pleased with our fitness levels, we ran out games and the season well.
The issue we had is that it took time for us to get close to our best team on the field, with a few players returning from long-term injuries and one from a bone-headed suspension.
We fielded a pretty weak team in the early rounds and probably played above ourselves than below. And the big one is Elliott, whenever he was out we struggled.
Towards the end of the year, even though we had Pendlebury out (and later some others), the rest of the team was quite settled and had built up some cohesion, resulting in better performances. Continuity is pretty much all we need to make the 8. The squad is good enough. To genuinely compete we need a bit more, but are not too far away given the evenness of the comp. |
That's a pretty good summation inky. I also think we suffered earlier in the season when Cox was exposed as not being quite ready for AFL football. Our forward line of Cox, Moore and White was cumbersome and lacked defensive pressure. This was a major problem as it's clear that Bucks had spent the pre-season working with a game-plan structured around having Cox at full forward. When this did not work, we had to go back to the drawing board. Very late in the season, due to Grundy's suspension, Cox was brought back in, and it seems his time in the VFL had done him the world of good, as by then he was a much better player. If Cox continues to improve, we should immediately be a 2 goal a week better side than we were this year. |
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roxymeg
Joined: 20 Jun 2017
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Sorry to say so, but with the list that we have got there is no way we could make the eight. We would need to make some really good trades to reverse this, and we have not done this over the past years.
One aspect that stands out to me is that we do not have "hard players". Here I am not saying that our players are not hard at it. But most teams have a couple of the type that I am talking about. These are players that damage opposition.
Just my thoughts. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Agree Rudeboy. The issues around Cox did hurt us early. We played him game 1 and then immediately, or almost, dropped him if I recall. Didn't seem to have much faith in the forward line setup we'd decided on coming into the season. Similar indecision around our attack cost us a few times.
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Well done boys! |
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Kwah-LeBaire
Joined: 15 Feb 2010
Location: Adelaide
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| Post subject: The winds of change | |
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| Cruisinwithdids wrote: | | For a team that has just come 13th and gone through a 'comprehensive' review, there doesn't appear to be the winds of change blowing through the Collingwood footy club. . . I'm just not sure what Collingwood are planning on doing to seriously improve in 2018. |
Thanks for that phrase, Cruisin'.
There were howling winds of change in 1975 when Murray Wiedeman took charge, but where is the premiership from his time?
There were howling winds of change in the joint in 1977 when Tom Hafey arrived, but where is the premiership from those years?
There were howling winds of change in 1986 when Leigh Matthews was promoted to coach. The club scored in 1990 (thank God), but the genius coach ('Coach For Life') was sacked five years later.
There were screaming winds of change in 2000 when Mick Malthouse arrived, but it took a decade for another premiership to manifest. Most of that time there was a quiet rebuild, not some instant fix.
There were no winds of change, just a load of backstabbing and whining, when Nathan Buckley took charge in 2012. Since then, I've observed the same process of quiet rebuild we saw with Lethal and MM, and the same delusional screaming and tantrums from fans who think the pixie dust is being deliberately withheld just to frustrate them. |
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Cruisinwithdids
Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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| There's a big difference between the early years of Malthouse v Buckley. Malthouse took 10 years to deliver a flag before being moved on the next year for some reason. He did however get us into grand finals in years 2 & 3.after taking on a wooden spoon team- to build through 05 06 then success 4 years later. What we are witnessing with Buckley is consistent decline and 4 years outside the 8, despite recruiting average experienced players through that period that have not worked for the future. People who care deeply about the footy club don't hate Buckley - they just want to see the club on the right path, because we all know how hard flags are to win. |
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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A few musings ...
What are the major moving (and not moving) parts likely to affect us this trade period?
Tom Lynch stays put at GCS [50/50] (contracted for 2018 and then an RFA).
Bryce Gibbs (CAR) to ADE [likely]
consequences ...
ADE will look to use a Lever deal to provide currency, eg Lever (ADE) to MEL for pick 10 and 27 or combo of first and second round from this year and next. Lever to MEL sounds likely.
CAR will look to replace Gibbs with RFA Rockliff. Brisbane likely to not match if they get a comp pick behind their first rounder (ie, #2 which would push us from #6 to #7) per Jonathan Brown On the Couch and I suspect they would even not match with an end of first round comp pick.
Jackson Trengrove to WBD sounds likely unfortunately.
If Lynch and Lever end up out of reach then we may be left with picking over the GCS carcass and looking for other possible "value" acquisitions whilst preserving our pick 6 to use in the draft, eg
Trent McKenzie (GCS)
Corey Maynard (MEL)
Devon Smith (GWS)
Jack Watts (MEL)
Harley Balic (FRE)
Lachlan Hansen (delisted FA ex NM) backup KPD
Keegan Brooksby (delisted FA ex GCS) backup ruck/KPF/KPD
Jarrod Harbrow? no from me
Stewart Crameri? no from me
Stefan Martin? no from me
BRI may end up with #1, #2 (Rockliff) and #15 (Schache) so there may be some scope to deal players (especially Queensland players) to BRI and also GCS for picks with draft ... I'm thinking fringe 22 guys like Oxley, Keeffe, Thomas, Smith.
Similarly with ADE and PTE ... decisions will need to be made on Aish and Broomhead as to whether they will reach their potential or we are better off trading for something now.
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All We Can Be |
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BBHS 
bbhs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Bellarine
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| Ben Crocker just got a 2 year deal to stay with Pies |
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