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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | K wrote: | | https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/why-are-all-our-dual-citizens-white-20180510-p4zefh.html |
Whether it's the point he was trying to make or not, it's some good food for thought for those who think we should scrap that section of the constitution.
Nobody got their knickers in a twist about any risks because the people were mainly british or Kiwi's.
But would we be happy to have an elected MP who was a citizen of Russia, or Iran, or China? |
A mature, forward-thinking citizenry would, I think, because they would realise that the fact of attaining Australian citizenship is itself a sufficient requirement, and at least as much of a guarantee of loyalty as the accident of being born here (or being born to Australian-born parents, for that matter). Whether or not that includes the majority of Australians is another question.
I find it thoroughly disheartening that there is such strong opposition to a referendum on this stupid and outdated constitutional requirement in all corners of politics, even though the vast majority of Western countries have gotten on fine without it. |
Someone can be born here, and thus be an Australian citizen, but have their allegiance elsewhere. I agree with P4S
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I think George Williams nails what's at stake here:
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/citizenship-ruling-political-doors-slam-half-population
| Quote: | In providing certainty, the High Court has made section 44 unworkable for many candidates. They will be left at the mercy of however long a foreign nation takes to process their renunciation form.
This might be only a few months in the case of Britain, but could extend to many months or even more than a year for other nations.
It is already too late for some people contemplating a run at the next election. Candidates must now divest themselves of foreign citizenship long before the earliest date that election might be called.
The major parties may respond by bringing forward their preselection and vetting procedures.
This will be much harder for minor parties and independents, let alone for new parties that spring up on the eve of an election. The High Court’s decision puts them at a major disadvantage.
The problem becomes even more acute when a preselected candidate pulls out on the eve of the poll, perhaps because of illness or scandal. This will not leave enough time for a replacement candidate to remove themselves of dual nationality. Any person with even the hint of dual nationality will not be considered.
The main legacy of the Gallagher decision will be to greatly narrow the group of people who can stand for federal office. The hurdle is now much higher for any person with dual nationality, whether they are aware of this or not. This will act as an insurmountable barrier to many Australians, especially that half of the population who themselves were or have a parent born overseas. This is yet another reason why section 44 needs to change. |
I think the question of allegiance is a serious red herring here. Politicians can be judged on their actions and decisions, and if we're worried about covert activity then dual citizenship is the least of our problems (any double agent seeking to become a politician need not hold another citizenship to begin with, and if need be they could easily go through the motions of divesting themselves of their citizenship and then apply for political asylum if things went wrong). Meanwhile, of course, the influence of international corporations on our politics through donations and lobbying continues unabated...
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| stui magpie wrote: | ...
Someone can be born here, and thus be an Australian citizen, but have their allegiance elsewhere. I agree with P4S |
Umm... is that true? Does birth automatically confer citizenship? |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ... “... you should just be a lawyer, doctor, research scientist or stockbroker (I suppose there are other occupations but none come to mind, just now) like everybody else”? |
Too much pot? Or wine?
How about footballer? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| K wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ...
Someone can be born here, and thus be an Australian citizen, but have their allegiance elsewhere. I agree with P4S |
Umm... is that true? Does birth automatically confer citizenship? |
I believe so, yes.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| True in some world. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| David wrote: | | K wrote: | ...
Umm... is that true? Does birth automatically confer citizenship? |
I believe so, yes. |
..."if at least one parent is an Australian citizen or permanent resident at the time of the child's birth."
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/life/chil
I think that's an important distinction. Some might want it tougher, e.g. both parents citizen, but I don't think the US has any restriction like that. Without checking, I think you could be illegally in the US and the kid would still be a citizen. |
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Nick - Pie Man
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
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The best part about being born is that sometimes you win free citizenships for other countries too.
I'm a triple citizen, a fact I was completely ignorant of until this stuff happened and I started asking questions.
It's completely absurd that I can't be elected into parliament just because some other country I had nothing to do with says I'm its citizen. There are so many other, better reasons why I shouldn't be elected! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| K wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | ... “... you should just be a lawyer, doctor, research scientist or stockbroker (I suppose there are other occupations but none come to mind, just now) like everybody else”? |
Too much pot? Or wine?
How about footballer? |
"Footballer" isn't an occupation - it's just something you do at weekends to fill in your time until you qualify for full membership of the Australia Club.
You're right, though, that my comment was a little narrow - I forgot that whole range of things that The Poor do - like teaching and nursing and cleaning chicken fat off the walls at KFC and so on.  |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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not sure why the USA is mentioned. You can not be a President if not born there. I think there is also and minimum age restriction as well. Besides the unwriyyen fact you have to have emillions to start with.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | I think George Williams nails what's at stake here:
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/citizenship-ruling-political-doors-slam-half-population
| Quote: | In providing certainty, the High Court has made section 44 unworkable for many candidates. They will be left at the mercy of however long a foreign nation takes to process their renunciation form.
This might be only a few months in the case of Britain, but could extend to many months or even more than a year for other nations.
It is already too late for some people contemplating a run at the next election. Candidates must now divest themselves of foreign citizenship long before the earliest date that election might be called.
The major parties may respond by bringing forward their preselection and vetting procedures.
This will be much harder for minor parties and independents, let alone for new parties that spring up on the eve of an election. The High Court’s decision puts them at a major disadvantage.
The problem becomes even more acute when a preselected candidate pulls out on the eve of the poll, perhaps because of illness or scandal. This will not leave enough time for a replacement candidate to remove themselves of dual nationality. Any person with even the hint of dual nationality will not be considered.
The main legacy of the Gallagher decision will be to greatly narrow the group of people who can stand for federal office. The hurdle is now much higher for any person with dual nationality, whether they are aware of this or not. This will act as an insurmountable barrier to many Australians, especially that half of the population who themselves were or have a parent born overseas. This is yet another reason why section 44 needs to change. |
I think the question of allegiance is a serious red herring here. Politicians can be judged on their actions and decisions, and if we're worried about covert activity then dual citizenship is the least of our problems (any double agent seeking to become a politician need not hold another citizenship to begin with, and if need be they could easily go through the motions of divesting themselves of their citizenship and then apply for political asylum if things went wrong). Meanwhile, of course, the influence of international corporations on our politics through donations and lobbying continues unabated... |
This is the right point. Someone with treasonous intent on behalf of a foreign power is unlikely to go about carrying the badge of divided loyalty in public. It’s a stupid law designed for another age. Repeal it via referendum.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Nick - Pie Man wrote: | The best part about being born is that sometimes you win free citizenships for other countries too.
I'm a triple citizen, a fact I was completely ignorant of until this stuff happened and I started asking questions.
It's completely absurd that I can't be elected into parliament just because some other country I had nothing to do with says I'm its citizen. There are so many other, better reasons why I shouldn't be elected! |
Ditto, but I'm eligible.
With the talent pool of potential pollies suddenly depleted, I might think about that. Better than working for a living.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| ronrat wrote: | | not sure why the USA is mentioned. You can not be a President if not born there... |
If you go back and read that comment and a few preceding it, you will see that the local topic was citizenship conferred by birth, not presidency or any other political office. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Mugwump wrote: | | This is the right point. Someone with treasonous intent on behalf of a foreign power is unlikely to go about carrying the badge of divided loyalty in public. It’s a stupid law designed for another age. Repeal it via referendum. |
Or they could always follow and uphold it.
That isn't too much to ask for?
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| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| People should follow rules when they exist, but that doesn't mean they or we should not question whether they should still exist. When enough seemingly regular people are breaking a law, it's a sign that something may be wrong with the law (cf. copyright laws). |
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