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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:57 am
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The sad thing about this is nothing will be done. It's money v poor people. The bean counters would have done a cost benefit analysis and would have come to a conclusion it would be cheaper to compensate people than actually fix the building. They would have had a figure of deaths in place and the toll may surpass this figure and in saying that, this is how the world operates. One only needs to look at the sub standard apartments that are exploding all over Melbourne.
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Bucks5 Capricorn

Nicky D - Parting the red sea


Joined: 23 Mar 2002


PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:31 am
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We know the cladding made the fire worse, but have they identified what was the cause? Was it an electrical thing, someone burning toast or an arsonist, etc??
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:26 am
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Allegedley the fire started from a fridge on level 4. There had apparently been recent issues with power surges causing appliances to catch fire overnight. The building wiring had apparently been investigated and a temporary fix put in place a while back.

So i'm putting coin on the "cause" being faulty wiring in the building.

From there, it seems lack of smoke alarms; apparent lack of sprinklers (as the fire travelled up to the top on the inside before the outside went up like a piece of wrapping paper); lack of a fire or evacuation plan and sundry other things all contributed to making it a disaster.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:34 am
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stui magpie wrote:
Allegedley the fire started from a fridge on level 4. There had apparently been recent issues with power surges causing appliances to catch fire overnight. The building wiring had apparently been investigated and a temporary fix put in place a while back.

So i'm putting coin on the "cause" being faulty wiring in the building.

From there, it seems lack of smoke alarms; apparent lack of sprinklers (as the fire travelled up to the top on the inside before the outside went up like a piece of wrapping paper); lack of a fire or evacuation plan and sundry other things all contributed to making it a disaster.
Lack of proper planning in the first instance.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:07 am
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Tannin wrote:
^ Sigh.

You are right, of course, though I wish you weren't.

Actually, it appears I got everything massively wrong - Stui says it was a fridge, not a toaster.

In a solid development for the relevant authorities, though, there is some suggestion that there was a temporary fix applied to faulty wiring in the building. There must be a good chance, now, that the enquiry will conclude in 2024 that it was all the sparky's fault.

Here's another way of looking at it:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/crime-grenfell-tower-burning-homes-police-fire
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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:54 am
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^^
Quote:
If past disasters have taught us anything, it is that things change only when powerful people are put in the dock. So, for the sake of the victims, call it what it is: a crime of the most horrendous kind.
Guess what won't happen.
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Pi Gemini



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:19 am
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This is a statement from Harley Facades:

http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk/page/8031/article/727

they only thing they say is they don't manufacture the facades and they are in common usage.
This is classic greasy corporate speak.
I would wager the the office paper shredder and the delete button on every computer is nearly worn out.

The reality is there are two types of cladding in use: the mineral core and the polyurethane core, the mineral core is they only one that has any fire resistant properties.

Investment tip don't buy shares in Harley Facades

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:02 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
swoop42 wrote:
Given people are quick to highlight the problems within a minority of those who follow Islam whenever a Muslim does something wrong (hey I'm guilty at times) I don't see why the opposite can't be appreciated when we're reminded that most Muslims are just normal people like the rest of us, often flawed, sometimes struggling with the stresses of daily life but also capable of the same acts of compassion and being victims of terrible tragedy not of there making.


maybe I'm just wired differently. When i see a news article about how a Catholic did something good with Children i don't feel compelled to post it to prove they aren't all paedophiles.


Excactly. Having said it a thousand times, let me say it again. Most Muslims are ordinary decent people, who do what all ordinary decent people of every religion and race and persuasion do whenever there is a disaster : they try to help. In this case many people - often Muslim, because many in that neighbourhood are Muslim - did just that. To try to make political capital from that is, in the circumstances, rather grubby. There were probably Catholics and quite possibly Maronites there too. It's good to see them being nice to other humans.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:18 pm
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Tannin wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
We know very little about the cause and/or exacerbating factors behind this tragedy.


Nonsense. Blind Freddie can see that the cladding burned like a bloody candle. Notice that both Swoop and I independently stated this BEFORE there were any news reports saying it. It was poke-your-eye-with-a-sharp-stick obvious. (Disclaimer: it is possible that there were news reports about the cladding somewhere prior to my post or Swoop's. Swoop can speak for himself, but I assure you that I didn't have or need any extra information other than a couple of photographs of the fire at that time. I first read news reports about it some time later.)

The cause of the disaster is 100% plain and obvious. Cheap and nasty building materials. There is photographic proof.

Now there will be and should be an extensive, careful enquiry sifting all the relevant facts and taking many months. It will doubtless throw light on the surrounding factors and make careful recommendations.

However the basic cause is absolutely clear. They coated the building in highly inflammable plastic because it was cheap. Why they were able to get away with doing that, we don't know.

We can of course guess: lack of regulation and proper oversight, almost certainly caused in turn by two decades of selfish neo-liberal government slashing vital services one at a time, and outsourcing other vital services to shonky private get-rich-quick businessmen. That's what has happened here, it's a pretty fair guess that it is the same only worse in the UK.

A proper inquiry - something akin to the Bushfires Royal Commission in Victoria, or the Child Sex Abuse one nationally - will bring all of that to light. Whether this inquiry will be a real one or a smooth-things-over cover-up, you are in a much better position to judge than I am.


It does seem that the cladding is part of the issue. So, it would seem, is the fire safety instruction installed in each flat telling people to "stay put" rather than get to the escape stair. All of these and more will no doubt be explored in the inquiry that will follow. Though there may be the odd exception, in Britain inquiries are usually rigorous, and generally lead to improvements in knowledge and practice.

Where your ideological hemline is showing is in your "guess" about the political causes. From the 1988 Clapham junction rail disaster which killed 35 people to the Ronan Point hi rise collapse of 1973, to the hundreds of avoidable deaths in several malfunctioning NHS hospitals, disasters in government operated and maintained assets have happened from time to time as well. Humans are fallible, mistakes are made, trade-offs are inevitable, and negligence is possible. It might be best to understand all of the relevant factors before we make too many ideologically-filtered assumptions about the root causes.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:34 pm
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Tannin wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
This is just a fine example of the perfection of conservative deregulation in action. A storm created at the confluence of a tendency towards laissez-faire building "regulation", steady reductions in building inspection staffing levels and efficiency, a fervent desire to ignore obviously unacceptable breaches of standards and a generous disregard for the living circumstances of people who aren't actually rich.


Nailed it. Spot on.


A generous disregard which led to the refurbishment which probably contributed to the disaster ? One of the many cruel ironies of this disaster is that the intention of improving the living conditions of public tenants has seemingly led to this.

Pontification from 12000 miles about standards. Spare us the certainties of such ignorance.

Regarding the "living standards of those who are not rich", Kensington and Chelsea is the richest borough in London. 2BR flats of this type on the private market in this location would rent for about AUD 4500/month. Most private renters cannot afford to live anywhere near this area.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:36 pm
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What makes it impossible? But not all of them?
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:11 pm
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^ Hardly relevant given that it seems to have been a public housing estate.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:56 pm
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The insidious form of deflection that proceeds on the basis that intelligent people with the requisite knowledge and understanding can't see what's in front of their faces because "the facts aren't known" is a principal means by which conservative filth has remained in power and able to continue to perform evils acts that lead to such disasters for so long.

For the record, I spent much of the 1980s - in a vastly different occupation from my present one - making sure that certain unhealthy aspects of the British experiment in high-rise public housing were not replicated in Victoria. In short, there is a reason this one burnt down and the Victorian ones don't (for all of their other faults) - the building regulations and fire-standards compliance are the reason. It isn't a matter that calls for complex thought - unless, of course, one is in the gun, responsible for what's occurred and looking to shift blame.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:17 pm
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David wrote:
^ Hardly relevant given that it seems to have been a public housing estate.


which makes it irrelevant how ?

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:08 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
Tannin wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
This is just a fine example of the perfection of conservative deregulation in action. A storm created at the confluence of a tendency towards laissez-faire building "regulation", steady reductions in building inspection staffing levels and efficiency, a fervent desire to ignore obviously unacceptable breaches of standards and a generous disregard for the living circumstances of people who aren't actually rich.


Nailed it. Spot on.


A generous disregard which led to the refurbishment which probably contributed to the disaster ? One of the many cruel ironies of this disaster is that the intention of improving the living conditions of public tenants has seemingly led to this.

Pontification from 12000 miles about standards. Spare us the certainties of such ignorance.

Regarding the "living standards of those who are not rich", Kensington and Chelsea is the richest borough in London. 2BR flats of this type on the private market in this location would rent for about AUD 4500/month. Most private renters cannot afford to live anywhere near this area.


Are they of this type though? With highly flammable exteriors?

From my hotel room this morning I watched a guy I shared the breakfast room with, walk across the street to his 'house' in tent city. Yes flammable, but much easier to escape.

I was born in Devon, my parents could only afford a shitty caravan to live in for the first couple of years (yes I'm not just a RAF brat, I'm trailer trash!)

I don't care who you are, how much you have, how clever you are, or how incapacitated by what ever - you deserve to have adequate and relatively safe housing. How many of those killed were under the illusion they were safe?

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