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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:18 pm
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Pies2016 wrote:
didick wrote:
For the disposal efficiency stat, is a kick or hand pass considered as being effective/efficient even if it was dropped or fumbled by the intended receiver? I remember a couple of simple drops from great kicks yesterday which made me wonder. If you drill 10 kicks perfectly to team mates, but three of them drop them, is your DE 70%?

EDIT: Found this on BF:

Effective disposals are made up of effective long kicks, effective short kicks and effective handballs. An effective long kick is one that is 40 metres to a 50/50 or better for the team. An effective short kick is one that results in a teammate's possession who was the intended target of the kicker. A handball to a teammate that hits the intended target to the team's advantage is recorded as an effective handball.


Exactly. People should know what stats actually mean before they knock them. The people who usually knock stats are the same people who don't like opinions questioned.

Disposal efficiency when taken in context is a good stat. The larger the sample, the less you can argue with it.
What it doesn't take into account is decision making. A player can receive an effective disposal based on his decision but it may not have been the best option for his team.
For stats to be most effective, they need to be measured against all the other clubs, not just internally.
Clubs don't just say we are going ok with a kicking efficiency of 70 % across the board but they will measure that stat against all other clubs and see where they sit in the pecking order. ( statistical differential )

Cheers


Also isnt a measure under pressure. Have to assume this from the tot CP stats but again is an assumption.

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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:21 pm
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MJ23 wrote:
Funny Sidey gets compared to Beams. Two very different types of mids. Must be because they were drafted the same year.Id suggest the club would be more than happy with the mid Sidey is rather than worrying about what he isnt given there are others to balance out.

There career stats don't really have one dominating the other. Both have strengths though.

Sidey kicks more, marks more (runs harder/longer so gets more uncontested), actually tackles more per game just.
Clearances 2.28 / clangers 2.1 / cp 7.54 / 1.6 one%rs

Dayne handballs more and averages a couple more disposals per game because of it, averages 1 goal a game to Sideys .8.
Clearances 4.38/clangers 2.24, cp 9.84 / 1.1 one%rs

Sidey though has played 37 more games and is nearly a full year younger.
While not winning a B&F - hes been fairly consistent even beating Beams in his final year.

I think what is being pointed out in the whole scheme of things is very detailed - I guess that is what happens to the very best players.
Wink


There all interesting stats but as you said they play vastly different roles. Also Sidey has been more durable than Beams hence why he's played more games as well.
Beams and Sidey have been compared because they both got drafted the same year to the same club and thus played in the same side under the same coaches on the same grounds in the same conditions so the comparison is only fair on that basis really.
A couple of stats not pointed out was Beams wins more contested ball takes more contested marks has more (on average) forward 50 entries has more score involvements
But they play vastly different roles. Also I noticed you say Sidey averages 2.1 clangers a game the stats I see say 511 from 173 games means average is 2.95 a game the 7th highest average for a player currently playing with over 150 games
Personally Beams averages now mean nothing he doesn't wear the club colours but he's often used by posters as why they think Sidey is elite. Winning B&F's don't really mean much except to the players and the club and I do concur that playing in sides containing Pendles and Swan would make it hard to win our B&F but it was done hence why I made the point.
MJ all I want is for his best to be the norm every week because that would make us a much better side and win more games which is what I care about mate
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Member 7167 

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Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:45 pm
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The club were so concerned about Sidey's form they made him player of the week. It is obvious that they rate him differently to some on Nicks and believe that his strengths greatly out weight his weaknesses.
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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:55 pm
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qldmagpie67 wrote:
MJ23 wrote:
Funny Sidey gets compared to Beams. Two very different types of mids. Must be because they were drafted the same year.Id suggest the club would be more than happy with the mid Sidey is rather than worrying about what he isnt given there are others to balance out.

There career stats don't really have one dominating the other. Both have strengths though.

Sidey kicks more, marks more (runs harder/longer so gets more uncontested), actually tackles more per game just.
Clearances 2.28 / clangers 2.1 / cp 7.54 / 1.6 one%rs

Dayne handballs more and averages a couple more disposals per game because of it, averages 1 goal a game to Sideys .8.
Clearances 4.38/clangers 2.24, cp 9.84 / 1.1 one%rs

Sidey though has played 37 more games and is nearly a full year younger.
While not winning a B&F - hes been fairly consistent even beating Beams in his final year.

I think what is being pointed out in the whole scheme of things is very detailed - I guess that is what happens to the very best players.
Wink


There all interesting stats but as you said they play vastly different roles. Also Sidey has been more durable than Beams hence why he's played more games as well.
Beams and Sidey have been compared because they both got drafted the same year to the same club and thus played in the same side under the same coaches on the same grounds in the same conditions so the comparison is only fair on that basis really.
A couple of stats not pointed out was Beams wins more contested ball takes more contested marks has more (on average) forward 50 entries has more score involvements
But they play vastly different roles. Also I noticed you say Sidey averages 2.1 clangers a game the stats I see say 511 from 173 games means average is 2.95 a game the 7th highest average for a player currently playing with over 150 games
Personally Beams averages now mean nothing he doesn't wear the club colours but he's often used by posters as why they think Sidey is elite. Winning B&F's don't really mean much except to the players and the club and I do concur that playing in sides containing Pendles and Swan would make it hard to win our B&F but it was done hence why I made the point.
MJ all I want is for his best to be the norm every week because that would make us a much better side and win more games which is what I care about mate


Agree - they get compared as they were drafted same time/same club. Thats what I pointed out.
Durability is an important stat - we pay players to play games and its an important advantage to actually play them.
I have sideys clangers at 364 from AFL Tables.
I referenced contested possessions (cp) and Dayne no doubt leads these as well as cm - Dayne can play tall which is an absolute strength. He is tough and hard at it with a knack for winning the ball when he should be out of the contest.

Id be interested in meters gained comparison as Sidey kicks more but also covers more ground running both ways. Dayne is very much a forward running goal kicking mid.

I agree there are areas on his game that Sidey needs to work on. I just think what areas he needs work in are not as bad, or as big of an issue given his output in a number of other areas of which little is spoken about. He has a knack for standing up in big games or doing the right thing at the right time to win games.

He is also Loyal and when out of contract is in demand.

Happy to suggest improvement opportunities for any player however to suggest as some on Nicks have done that he should never wear a collingwood jumper again................
Geeze Id like to look at how they perform in their given job and would suggest anything short of elite then they should resign or get sacked Wink

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Piesnchess 



Joined: 09 Jun 2008


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:56 pm
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Member 7167 wrote:
The club were so concerned about Sidey's form they made him player of the week. It is obvious that they rate him differently to some on Nicks and believe that his strengths greatly out weight his weaknesses.


AND he got BOG from most media outlets too, ah, bot some Nicksters are such unbiased experts, cough, aren't they. Razz

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mooretreloar 



Joined: 21 Sep 2016


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:57 pm
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didick wrote:
For the disposal efficiency stat, is a kick or hand pass considered as being effective/efficient even if it was dropped or fumbled by the intended receiver? I remember a couple of simple drops from great kicks yesterday which made me wonder. If you drill 10 kicks perfectly to team mates, but three of them drop them, is your DE 70%?

EDIT: Found this on BF:

Effective disposals are made up of effective long kicks, effective short kicks and effective handballs. An effective long kick is one that is 40 metres to a 50/50 or better for the team. An effective short kick is one that results in a teammate's possession who was the intended target of the kicker. A handball to a teammate that hits the intended target to the team's advantage is recorded as an effective handball.


If the receiver drops a chest mark, say 10 metres clear of an opponent, then the receiver will be awarded a clanger, not the kicker, which reduces the receiver's official ranking points.
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:58 pm
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Piesnchess wrote:
[quote="Member 7167"]The club were so concerned about Sidey's form they made him player of the week. It is obvious that they rate him differently to some on Nicks and believe that his strengths greatly out weight his weaknesses.[/quote]

AND he got BOG from most media outlets too, ah, bot some Nicksters are such unbiased experts, cough, aren't they. Razz
Not obvious to me.
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mooretreloar 



Joined: 21 Sep 2016


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:07 pm
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The votes from the coaches in our game were:
9. Pendles CD equal 2nd most influential
6. Beams CD 4th most influential
5. Sidey CD equal 6th most influential
4. Elliott CD 9th most influential
3. Adams CD equal 6th most influential
2. Zorko CD equal 2nd most influential
1. Goldsack CD 8th most influential

Interestingly, none for Treloar, but Champion Data ranked him the most influential on the ground. His first half was sensational (86 ranking points), but Bastinac tagged him in the second half and quelled his influence. For mine, a coach would be looking at 4 quarter efforts, whether the player played his role for that game and also looking to reward his leaders. Whereas, CD are looking at a number of stats and indicators, including who was the most influential player when the game was on the line.

Also, none for Grundy, who was rated 3rd most influential by CD.


Last edited by mooretreloar on Mon May 29, 2017 4:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:08 pm
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edit - ^ beat me to it

Coaches votes

9 - Pendles
6 - Beams
5 - Steele
4 - Elliot
3 - Taylor
2- Zorko
1 - Goldy

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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:47 pm
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MJ23 wrote:
edit - ^ beat me to it

Coaches votes

9 - Pendles
6 - Beams
5 - Steele
4 - Elliot
3 - Taylor
2- Zorko
1 - Goldy


MJ that's interesting in th coaches votes mate
Pendles got. 5&4
Which means the following if my sums are correct
Sidey 5&0
Beams 3&3
Elliott 4&0
Tatylor 2&1
Zorko 2&0
Goldie 1&0
Looks like 1 coach saw the game basically completely diffent to the other with the exception of Beams.
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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:50 pm
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MJ23 wrote:
qldmagpie67 wrote:
MJ23 wrote:
Funny Sidey gets compared to Beams. Two very different types of mids. Must be because they were drafted the same year.Id suggest the club would be more than happy with the mid Sidey is rather than worrying about what he isnt given there are others to balance out.

There career stats don't really have one dominating the other. Both have strengths though.

Sidey kicks more, marks more (runs harder/longer so gets more uncontested), actually tackles more per game just.
Clearances 2.28 / clangers 2.1 / cp 7.54 / 1.6 one%rs

Dayne handballs more and averages a couple more disposals per game because of it, averages 1 goal a game to Sideys .8.
Clearances 4.38/clangers 2.24, cp 9.84 / 1.1 one%rs

Sidey though has played 37 more games and is nearly a full year younger.
While not winning a B&F - hes been fairly consistent even beating Beams in his final year.

I think what is being pointed out in the whole scheme of things is very detailed - I guess that is what happens to the very best players.
Wink


There all interesting stats but as you said they play vastly different roles. Also Sidey has been more durable than Beams hence why he's played more games as well.
Beams and Sidey have been compared because they both got drafted the same year to the same club and thus played in the same side under the same coaches on the same grounds in the same conditions so the comparison is only fair on that basis really.
A couple of stats not pointed out was Beams wins more contested ball takes more contested marks has more (on average) forward 50 entries has more score involvements
But they play vastly different roles. Also I noticed you say Sidey averages 2.1 clangers a game the stats I see say 511 from 173 games means average is 2.95 a game the 7th highest average for a player currently playing with over 150 games
Personally Beams averages now mean nothing he doesn't wear the club colours but he's often used by posters as why they think Sidey is elite. Winning B&F's don't really mean much except to the players and the club and I do concur that playing in sides containing Pendles and Swan would make it hard to win our B&F but it was done hence why I made the point.
MJ all I want is for his best to be the norm every week because that would make us a much better side and win more games which is what I care about mate


Agree - they get compared as they were drafted same time/same club. Thats what I pointed out.
Durability is an important stat - we pay players to play games and its an important advantage to actually play them.
I have sideys clangers at 364 from AFL Tables.
I referenced contested possessions (cp) and Dayne no doubt leads these as well as cm - Dayne can play tall which is an absolute strength. He is tough and hard at it with a knack for winning the ball when he should be out of the contest.

Id be interested in meters gained comparison as Sidey kicks more but also covers more ground running both ways. Dayne is very much a forward running goal kicking mid.

I agree there are areas on his game that Sidey needs to work on. I just think what areas he needs work in are not as bad, or as big of an issue given his output in a number of other areas of which little is spoken about. He has a knack for standing up in big games or doing the right thing at the right time to win games.

He is also Loyal and when out of contract is in demand.

Happy to suggest improvement opportunities for any player however to suggest as some on Nicks have done that he should never wear a collingwood jumper again................
Geeze Id like to look at how they perform in their given job and would suggest anything short of elite then they should resign or get sacked Wink


Mate I'll be the first to admit I might go to hard on him but that's because as I see it his best is brilliant and his worst is horrible and when he's on we look so much better. I want to see that brilliant best more often as I said means ni we win more games whic is what I want as a pies supporter.
Hey while we're doing fun comparisons how about Sidey and Blair !!
Both premiership players both about to be 150 game players both haven't won any awards and both kick .8 goals a game 😭😭😭😛😛
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BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:32 pm
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qldmagpie67 wrote:
MJ23 wrote:
edit - ^ beat me to it

Coaches votes

9 - Pendles
6 - Beams
5 - Steele
4 - Elliot
3 - Taylor
2- Zorko
1 - Goldy


MJ that's interesting in th coaches votes mate
Pendles got. 5&4
Which means the following if my sums are correct
Sidey 5&0
Beams 3&3
Elliott 4&0
Tatylor 2&1
Zorko 2&0
Goldie 1&0
Looks like 1 coach saw the game basically completely diffent to the other with the exception of Beams.

How did Taylor get votes ahead of Treloar??? You have to be kidding. Beams was great. Zorko was great as well. I hardly even noticed Taylor. The coaches are blind if they think Taylor was better than Treloar.
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Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:48 pm
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mooretreloar wrote:
didick wrote:
For the disposal efficiency stat, is a kick or hand pass considered as being effective/efficient even if it was dropped or fumbled by the intended receiver? I remember a couple of simple drops from great kicks yesterday which made me wonder. If you drill 10 kicks perfectly to team mates, but three of them drop them, is your DE 70%?

EDIT: Found this on BF:

Effective disposals are made up of effective long kicks, effective short kicks and effective handballs. An effective long kick is one that is 40 metres to a 50/50 or better for the team. An effective short kick is one that results in a teammate's possession who was the intended target of the kicker. A handball to a teammate that hits the intended target to the team's advantage is recorded as an effective handball.


If the receiver drops a chest mark, say 10 metres clear of an opponent, then the receiver will be awarded a clanger, not the kicker, which reduces the receiver's official ranking points.


I relate the above to one of the coupke criticisms that I have of Sidebottom ( and I'm far from a Sidebottom knocker )
Sidey treats the ball like a hot potato in close to often. He will distribute the ball out to whoever he sees first and invariably makes it a team mates problem.
Pendlebury just holds onto the ball, takes the heat and then waits for a team mate to be released on the outside. In fairness, Pendlebury is the benchmark, so none are better than him but for all Sideys pluses, he can put his team mates under pressure when he is IN CLOSE.
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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:33 pm
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Bloody coaches - that's two weeks in a row they've given votes to Sidebottom, when we all know the guy is actually hopeless.

Must be a conspiracy. Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz
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dalyc 



Joined: 02 Mar 2005


PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:36 pm
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RudeBoy wrote:
BazBoy wrote:
Info please
Did not get to see game --just match highlites on my phone
My question /comment is on Scharenberg

How did nickster,s see his game
Stats?
Efficiency?


I was probably his greatest critic on Nicks, a year or so ago when he seemed to be prevaricating about renewing his contract with Collingwood. I also thought he VFL form was ordinary, to say the least. How wrong was I. I can see now why he was such a highly rated draftee. He reads the ball well and is silky in his kicking. Watching the game today I was super impressed, my only concern being his apparent slowness in moving laterally - no doubt due to mental scars following his double knee recos. Hopefully he'll get more confident in his body as he plays more games. On today's form I'd be picking him in our best back 6. Congratulations to Schazza.


The quality of a Nicks poster should be measured in their ability to say "I was wrong".

Rudeboy- 3 votes.

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