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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
She has said quite clearly that LGBTI are in effect Nazis & Communists, the Devil incarnate etc. |
Nope, here is what she said, as quoted in the SMH :
"That's what Hitler did. That's what communism did," Court said, "get in the minds of the children. There's a whole plot in our nation and in the nations of the world to get in the minds of the children.".
Separately, she appears to have said (though I cannot find the exact quote) that sowing sexual confusion in the minds of children is "all the devil".
Neither of these statements equate transgender children with the devil or with
Nazis, directly or "in effect". One never expects fairness when the modern Left are on their modern witch hunts, but the facts are the facts. Her actual statement on this area was that "I love gay people and have many in my church". Hardly the statement of a hatemonger.
Still, the poison has done its work by now. The bullant nest of outrage has been kicked, and the slavering for a dishonouring is in full surge. Any public figure with views that the bullants do not like will think twice about expressing them in future. Meanwhile ordinary people will raise their eyebrows, and consider that defending a daft old bat is not worth the trouble of having their own tolerance called into question. Martin Niemoller had a poem about that. |
Let's not split hairs here. MC's been doing this for years not just at 74. These days 74 is not infirm or impaired. Again you seek to minimize her nastiness.
To be clear:
She is not a benign older biddy. She is not stupid in fact (unintentionally I assume) you've displayed a demeaning attitude to older people by trying to protect her in the way you have
To be clear:
I have said throughout & consistently:
Let's have the stadium named after her.
To be clear:
She has no control nor should she over the stadium's use.
To be clear:
She has expressed homophobic comments directed to gays, older tennis players etc and in so doing MC has juxtaposed nazis, communists etc with the said LGBTI (or parts thereof) which is divisive.
To be clear:
I have stated that using the stadium for purposes including the LGBTI community will be an act of inclusiveness
To be clear
Nowhere (I think) have I said punish her for her views
Is that clear?  
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ every opinion is divisive. It's why we have them, to draw distinctions between what we believe to be true and false. You want to devote a significant part of a building named in her honor for purposes that she clearly abhors because you disagree with those views. That's called spite, in any reasonable meaning of the word. That, at least, is clear.
Fortunately, I doubt that we would see any public buildings which happen to be named after a gay person re-purposed for conservative religious advocacy if the dedicatee disses religion. For this is the mirror-image of your unfortunate, "inclusive" (sic) proposal.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ every opinion is divisive. It's why we have them, to draw distinctions between what we believe to be true and false. You want to devote a significant part of a building named in her honor for purposes that she clearly abhors because you disagree with those views. That's called spite, in any reasonable meaning of the word. That, at least, is clear.
Fortunately, I doubt that we would see any public buildings which happen to be named after a gay person re-purposed for conservative religious advocacy if the dedicatee disses religion. For this is the mirror-image of your unfortunate, "inclusive" (sic) proposal. |
You're overthinking this. Stop arguing for arguments sake. Your analogies are stretching the point to tedious proportions.
She's entitled to her views but can't complain about a reaction when she aligns LGBTI with nazis and communists.
My views are to include the many, her views are to exclude the many. She can express her views ad infinitum, she's been doing that for years. I respected her as a tennis player. I suspect you've only learned of her views now. Don't attribute others (or your ideas of others intentions) to me.
However use the stadium for a variety of purposes (oh wait it already is) but include LGBTI in that. That is not to spite her but to include the others. They too will respect her magnificent tennis history. The rest is a nonsense & an indefensible argument on your part: (not very nuanced) that is clear. You know that too
Good night I'm off to bed.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ not overthinking it, WPT, just thinking - an art which we, as a society, are in danger of losing, under a toxic landslide of sentimental conventionality.
The analogies I used are about as logically exact as an analogy can be. You just don't like them because they do not lead to your preordained conclusion.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Honestly, the more I think about this, the more I feel like I don't care if the name does get changed. Nobody has a fundamental right to be honoured in this way, and it has practically no bearing on her rights to freedom of expression. Sports stadiums change their names all the time, sometimes for the most trivial reasons. She chose to devote her later life to a cause that made a lot of people angry and upset, using her fame as a tennis player to do so, and that taints her legacy. She's been honoured for fourteen years. Maybe it's someone else's turn, or maybe it's time to give the stadium a generic name again.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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You express views which make some people angry and upset too, David. if, in later life, you achieve an honor, should we take it from you because some people get upset about your opinions and beliefs ?
A society which retracts honours from people for speaking what they believe, in good faith, to be the truth, is one that does not deserve its liberty.
When they come for you, who will speak , etc.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The problem may be less with encroachment on free speech than the nature of such honours themselves. To have your name on a public venue suggests that you are someone to admire without reservation. Our desire for heroes may be unavoidable, but I find that kind of distasteful for some reason it's sort of the mirror image of this problem of public shaming. We shouldn't be putting people on pedestals in the first place.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | The problem may be less with encroachment on free speech than the nature of such honours themselves. To have your name on a public venue suggests that you are someone to admire without reservation. Our desire for heroes may be unavoidable, but I find that kind of distasteful for some reason it's sort of the mirror image of this problem of public shaming. We shouldn't be putting people on pedestals in the first place. |
To quote another thread, we are all sinners. We can either honour nobody for anything, or accept that public honours are for something specific in a given field and generalized sainthood is not necessary as long as you do not advocate massacre or the like. We were doing ok with this pretty simple, time-honored and grown-up idea until someone with unfashionable views offended a militant group last week.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | The problem may be less with encroachment on free speech than the nature of such honours themselves. To have your name on a public venue suggests that you are someone to admire without reservation. Our desire for heroes may be unavoidable, but I find that kind of distasteful for some reason it's sort of the mirror image of this problem of public shaming. We shouldn't be putting people on pedestals in the first place. |
In this case, part of the problem is that she has used her public honours to lend legitimacy to her loopy beliefs concerning the fairies at the bottom of her garden. I can't put the link up from my iPhone but the way that is all expressed on the website for the WA enterprise is plainly designed to encourage the gullible to believe that she's received various government honours for her "ministry", presumably with a view to legitimising her nasty, stupid, bigoted brand of "Christianity". |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | The problem may be less with encroachment on free speech than the nature of such honours themselves. To have your name on a public venue suggests that you are someone to admire without reservation. Our desire for heroes may be unavoidable, but I find that kind of distasteful for some reason it's sort of the mirror image of this problem of public shaming. We shouldn't be putting people on pedestals in the first place. |
To quote another thread, we are all sinners. We can either honour nobody for anything, or accept that public honours are for something specific in a given field and generalized sainthood is not necessary as long as you do not advocate massacre or the like. We were doing ok with this pretty simple, time-honored and grown-up idea until someone with unfashionable views offended a militant group last week. |
I think that's a fair response, though I wouldn't say we've been doing ok with it at all in recent times (and if this principle is such a simple one, why make an exception for proponents of mass murder? Surely then the exception only becomes one of degree do we refuse to honour nazis? Stalinists? and the Court question becomes an open one.). Still, I'd like to explore this idea of heroism more critically: in theory, we should recognise that an honour is for aptitude in a given field and nothing more, but cognitively/culturally we seem to have a hard time with that distinction.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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| David wrote: | | I think that's a fair response, though I wouldn't say we've been doing ok with it at all in recent times (and if this principle is such a simple one, why make an exception for proponents of mass murder? Surely then the exception only becomes one of degree do we refuse to honour nazis? Stalinists? and the Court question becomes an open one.). Still, I'd like to explore this idea of heroism more critically: in theory, we should recognise that an honour is for aptitude in a given field and nothing more, but cognitively/culturally we seem to have a hard time with that distinction. |
David as someone who grew up in Canberra you should realise that nearly every suburb and public building is named after a poltician. Do you want to run around tearing down the signs because some supported the White Australia policu, our involvement in the Vietnam war or oversaw the aboriginal protection policies of the mid 20th century. Where does it stop? Do we rename the Monash Unviversity and Freeway because it may offend pacifists or muslims merely because he was a jew and a soldier.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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My computer is down but McEnroe was quite amusing re Court & Nastase.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Cheers David
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| ronrat wrote: | | David wrote: | | I think that's a fair response, though I wouldn't say we've been doing ok with it at all in recent times (and if this principle is such a simple one, why make an exception for proponents of mass murder? Surely then the exception only becomes one of degree do we refuse to honour nazis? Stalinists? and the Court question becomes an open one.). Still, I'd like to explore this idea of heroism more critically: in theory, we should recognise that an honour is for aptitude in a given field and nothing more, but cognitively/culturally we seem to have a hard time with that distinction. |
David as someone who grew up in Canberra you should realise that nearly every suburb and public building is named after a poltician. Do you want to run around tearing down the signs because some supported the White Australia policu, our involvement in the Vietnam war or oversaw the aboriginal protection policies of the mid 20th century. Where does it stop? Do we rename the Monash Unviversity and Freeway because it may offend pacifists or muslims merely because he was a jew and a soldier. |
Of course it's an absurd path to pursue I agree that once you start, you'd be hard-pressed to know when to stop. Perhaps I'm playing devil's advocate here, but all I'll say is it's far from unusual for the names of streets, buildings and public institutions to change for one reason or another (perhaps some greater luminary died). Getting your name somewhere isn't and can't be some eternal guarantee; it's transitory and capricious. But I agree that it's probably better for society if we resist the urge to strip bigots of their professional honours, because that does have a totalitarian air about it.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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