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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Bingo.
The 'reform" of Christianity happened because of the clear separation between the church and the state in western society. Under islam, once it gets a foothold, the church becomes the state, no such separation.
Key difference. |
It's true, but there are deeper reasons.
Firstly, Britain does not separate the Church and state. It has an established church, the Monarch is the head of the CofE, and bishops sit in the House of Lords. Yet it is an intensely tolerant country which has provided a haven for other religions for the last two and a half centuries. The culture in which a religion has grown makes a difference to the way it is expressed, as long as the theology and texts of the religion allow for such compromises (i.e. they do not explicitly inveigh against it).
Secondly, the reform of Christianity came from within, with the rise of Protestantism and its repudiation of absolute authority, in favour of individual conscience in light of scripture. Whilst I was raised (very mildly) as a Catholic, it is to Protestantism that Christianity owes its relatively accommodative, "separate" stance. It is arguably a degraded kind of Protestant virtue-seeking that animates the barren parades of modern progressives.
To argue that Islam will inevitably follow the same course as Christianity did is a statement of very crude historical hubris.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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The monarch might be the head of state but she doesn't make the laws, the parliament does. hence, although the monarch may be also the head of the church and the state, the state and the religion are essentially separated.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Agreed, Stui, but my point was just that the U.K. shows it is not so much the formal structures that matter, as the mental structures.... and the mental structure of a religion derives from its texts, and the culture in which it was shaped over a long period.
In a sense, the real problem today is only partly Islam, it is that we have imported the culture of the Middle East into the Secular-Christian west on a large scale, at the same time as we have abandoned any ideals of integration for new arrivals.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Fri May 26, 2017 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| stui magpie wrote: | Other interest factor.
It seems this prick may have planned the attack for around 12 months, even renting a flat he used as a bomb making factory.
The explosive used was TATP which you can find recipes on line for easily. basically Hydrogen peroxide, Acetone, a touch of sulphuric acid and a bit of fiddling. Same explosive used in paris and brussels.
Probably not as powerful as the old cocky's TNT (AKA ANFO) but doesn't need a secondary explosive as a detonator.
Edit, extra info. Not only same explosive as paris etc, basically same MO.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/paris-attack-tatp-chemical-bombs-2015-11?r=US&IR=T |
ASIO is watching you Mustafa Magpie.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Bingo.
The 'reform" of Christianity happened because of the clear separation between the church and the state in western society. Under islam, once it gets a foothold, the church becomes the state, no such separation.
Key difference. |
This is nonsense on two counts. Firstly, the separation of church and state in Christian societies we have here is a relatively recent phenomenon and is still more or less absent in some Christian societies (Russia being a case in point). It is, again, not an inherent aspect of Christianity to be pluralistic or cede power to government. The freedom to even practice different variants of Christianity, let alone other religions, or to make laws independent of the church, was something that was fought for.
Secondly, there are more than twenty Muslim-majority countries with a clear separation of church and state. So your claim that Islam and secularism are incompatible is obviously false, and you should be embarrassed to state it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism#Secular_states_with_majority_Muslim_populations |
You should be embarrassed by your thick headedness. have a close look at the countries on that list and see how many anywhere near the middle east are in turmoil?
Why do we have Muslims in Australia who insist that the law of the land is lesser than Sharia law?
How well are some of these cities travelling at the moment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population |
You wrote "under islam, once it gets a foothold, the church becomes the state, no such separation", but now qualify it with reference to geographical location. Sorry, you don't get to make a statement like that and then pick and choose how to apply it. If Albania, Bosnia, the Central Asian republics, much of Islamic Sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia and Malaysia to various extents, Turkey for the better part of a century (Erdogan's depressing recent slide into Islamism notwithstanding) and others can effectively separate church and state despite Islam having "gained a foothold" in those places centuries ago, then your statement is factually wrong. A howler, frankly.
Yes, some Muslims in Australia want Sharia Law. Shouldn't the fact that a great many don't suggest that Islam and secularism aren't, in fact, inherently incompatible? It seems like a fairly crucial point to get out of the way here.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| swoop42 wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Other interest factor.
It seems this prick may have planned the attack for around 12 months, even renting a flat he used as a bomb making factory.
The explosive used was TATP which you can find recipes on line for easily. basically Hydrogen peroxide, Acetone, a touch of sulphuric acid and a bit of fiddling. Same explosive used in paris and brussels.
Probably not as powerful as the old cocky's TNT (AKA ANFO) but doesn't need a secondary explosive as a detonator.
Edit, extra info. Not only same explosive as paris etc, basically same MO.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/paris-attack-tatp-chemical-bombs-2015-11?r=US&IR=T |
ASIO is watching you Mustafa Magpie. |
Watching?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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