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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | The KPP succession plan has worked brilliantly. Let's get rid of Cloke and replace him with ... absolutely nobody of AFL-standard. Because that'll work.
It beggars belief that so many of you were so invested in Cloke being thrown from the top of the building when it was so glaringly obvious that there was no-one else. The suggestion seemed to be that he wasn't an "all-time great" because his kicking was unreliable, so we should move him on. Well, guess what - we didn't have Hart, Brereton or Carey waiting to take over at the peak of their powers, so this is the consequence - a great, big, gaping hole where a CHF used to be.
The present state of disarray up forward is what you get when you lose Didak, Cloke, Thomas, Dawes and Krakouer and replace them with guys who have, on average, about half their collective football ability. Of course those players needed to be replaced but - as I have said before - you don't replace players of that standard with players gathered predominantly from the discount bin at the $2 shop. |
Cloke is a Jurassic dinosaur and will be flat out getting a gig with the dogs, when roughead and redpath are in full flight. Nobody wanted didak in the draft, nobody, Dawes was a spud at the Deees, dollar daisy pissed off for more cash, and has given the scum sweet FA. Krak may have had one more season in him, but no certainty. You cant re write history, those players were done, look at Thomas, an injury wreck. I do agree with you we should have at least had one KP forward to help Moore, but I guess the powers that be thought Moore , Fas, Elliott, white, cox, would do the job, with Howe pinch hitting, but so far its not gone as we planned. Next draft, no matter what the cost, get a KP real gun forward, that's the lesson. |
My point, in case you were incapable of understanding it (as distinct from deliberately misinterpreting it), was that we have, in general terms, been extremely adept at replacing good (or great) players with guys who are, on the whole, neither good nor great.
We all accept that those players required replacing - what they didn't require was replacement with generally inferior cattle. |
NO, I understood exactly what you meant, but its not as if the players who left went onto stellar careers elsewhere. Yes, we did not replace them with equal types, but as I said, I think the recruiters etc, thought wed be ok with Moore, fas, Elliott, cox, etc and they didn't bother to look for a genuine KP Forward, a mistake yes, and we have to make up for it bloody pronto. 
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
How do you judge like for like replacements? do you judge the player you're losing when they were at their best or as they were when we let them go?
If it's the former, our list management was horrible.
if it's the latter, it's a stupid argument. If a replacement for Didak at his best was available in the draft, we weren't able to get him. Same applies for the others. We have kids playing VFL offering more than Didak, thomas and dawes did in their final stages.
Lets see how Cloke's year actually plays out before we bag the decision to let him go too much. His best was very good, he hasn't been there for several years.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^^^ It's surely about how you value what's required, Stui. If you start from the proposition that Didak was a pick 4, Thomas was a 2, Dawes was an early second round, Cloke was the best power-forward of his era and Krak was a gifted player who, but for his imprisonment, was probably a 200-gamer, you reach the inevitable conclusion that you wouldn't be likely to replace them with guys at the end of their careers, guys who never had careers and guys who were taken down the pecking order in the draft. It's true that you occasionally get a pearl from your late oyster (Swan, Langdon, Walker) but, by and large, if you put your hand in randomly, you'll only get seafood. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Fair call, but the draft is still a lottery and your picks are only as good as your position on the ladder.
There's also the argument about drafting for what you need. Ball and jolly come to mind.
No argument that list management is complicated, but just equating past champs outs, with ins, doesn't work. it's overly simplistic.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Presti35 
Dick Lee for Legend Status
Joined: 05 Oct 2001
Location: London, England
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McCartin has been named to play for St Kilda this week. But amazingly, Josh Bruce has been omitted. Tippett has also returned from injury for this match, so lets watch this one closely.
Josh Schache has been dropped this week too. Hard to tell what's going on up there.
Nothing to do with this topic, but the Doggies dropping Tom Liberatore is interesting.
Anyway, when looking at getting KPPs from other clubs, look at Toby Nankervis. (A ruckman, but a KPP none the less). Was it 11 games in 3 years at Sydney? Swans getting a 3rd round pick in return. Bet they wish they could take that one back.
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A Goal Saved Is 2 Goals Earned! |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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Talk of a mature forward to protect Moore is crap. That bird has flown.(Norwegian wood = Trav) get the best available Key forward in the draft and move forward.
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'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
Didn't Bucks once use Langdon up fwd in a game, and I believe he kicked a couple of goals too?
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
My point about Reid is you don't take a defender in Reid and train him with the backs all preseason, just to change your mind when things turn a bit sour and play him forward after round five. We took a player in Keeffe who trained with the forwards all preseason. Now Keeffe is playing as a defender today. You're proposing that we take two defenders in Scharenberg and Langdon and turn them into forwards overnight.
Our planning is dismal with the playing group. That's why we're languishing in second last place. There's a very good management tool called the red bead game which explains in a very simple way why we are failing. I still have a lot of faith with the playing group but have started to lose all faith with the coaching group who fail every management test. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I always pray for more faith. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
My point about Reid is you don't take a defender in Reid and train him with the backs all preseason, just to change your mind when things turn a bit sour and play him forward after round five. We took a player in Keeffe who trained with the forwards all preseason. Now Keeffe is playing as a defender today. You're proposing that we take two defenders in Scharenberg and Langdon and turn them into forwards overnight.
Our planning is dismal with the playing group. That's why we're languishing in second last place. There's a very good management tool called the red bead game which explains in a very simple way why we are failing. I still have a lot of faith with the playing group but have started to lose all faith with the coaching group who fail every management test. |
Since the only place Keeffe can play effectively is in defence, it's good that they've got him training with the backs. Why they've been watching him for 6 years and still been trying to make him play forward or ruck is anybody's guess.
The Future Captain can play anywhere and do anything. Scharenberg, on the other hand, still looks too slow to play as a forward. |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
My point about Reid is you don't take a defender in Reid and train him with the backs all preseason, just to change your mind when things turn a bit sour and play him forward after round five. We took a player in Keeffe who trained with the forwards all preseason. Now Keeffe is playing as a defender today. You're proposing that we take two defenders in Scharenberg and Langdon and turn them into forwards overnight.
Our planning is dismal with the playing group. That's why we're languishing in second last place. There's a very good management tool called the red bead game which explains in a very simple way why we are failing. I still have a lot of faith with the playing group but have started to lose all faith with the coaching group who fail every management test. |
Since the only place Keeffe can play effectively is in defence, it's good that they've got him training with the backs. Why they've been watching him for 6 years and still been trying to make him play forward or ruck is anybody's guess.
The Future Captain can play anywhere and do anything. Scharenberg, on the other hand, still looks too slow to play as a forward. |
It's not whether Keeffe can play forward or back. It's training a player to play a certain way within the team structures and having backup when you get injuries. You can't just change a forward into a defender overnight. It shows you don't have any clue what you are doing, or you are so clever you get ahead of yourself. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
My point about Reid is you don't take a defender in Reid and train him with the backs all preseason, just to change your mind when things turn a bit sour and play him forward after round five. We took a player in Keeffe who trained with the forwards all preseason. Now Keeffe is playing as a defender today. You're proposing that we take two defenders in Scharenberg and Langdon and turn them into forwards overnight.
Our planning is dismal with the playing group. That's why we're languishing in second last place. There's a very good management tool called the red bead game which explains in a very simple way why we are failing. I still have a lot of faith with the playing group but have started to lose all faith with the coaching group who fail every management test. |
Since the only place Keeffe can play effectively is in defence, it's good that they've got him training with the backs. Why they've been watching him for 6 years and still been trying to make him play forward or ruck is anybody's guess.
The Future Captain can play anywhere and do anything. Scharenberg, on the other hand, still looks too slow to play as a forward. |
It's not whether Keeffe can play forward or back. It's training a player to play a certain way within the team structures and having backup when you get injuries. You can't just change a forward into a defender overnight. It shows you don't have any clue what you are doing, or you are so clever you get ahead of yourself. |
I wasn't disagreeing with you. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | Could Langdon and/or Scharenberg be developed as forwards? I realise they are not exactly key position players, but they are medium talls, and the way the game is going, they might be very valuable forwards indeed. |
You're proposing that we take two defenders in Scharenberg and Langdon and turn them into forwards overnight. |
Not at all. I'm thinking more long term, not short term. Given that we seem to have several defensive options, but our forward stocks are low, I reckon one of these players could have the footy smarts to become very good forwards. Since Scharenberg was so highly regarded in his draft year, I still find it hard to envisage he was selected to become a half back flanker. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Cox isn't playing in the VFL today. Might be a late inclusion for tonights' match.
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