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Post Match. Giants down Pies - All comments please

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melliot 



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:22 pm
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ROB wrote:
ThePieMind wrote:
melliot wrote:
FWIW I agree with KM. What he is explaining is only one example of failure of teaming/structure/team setup that fails too often.

We rarely win the tight one because of these fundamental issues.

I have plenty of examples of the team consistently not doing the simple things right. Or setting up right to how they want to play. For me when watching live, it is inexplicable frustration watching them play.

It is mostly a coaching problem IMO.


HAWKS won 6 games by less than a goal in 2016.
WHY - experience, experience, experience.

When we have a core/ stable playing group that have played with each other for an extended period, these mistake will be far fewer.

I've sen BJ, Shaw and many others make fundamental errors in their early days - you can't buy experience, other wise it would be an expense item in every FD budget.


Concur!


Experience helps. Organised good systems wins flags.

Explain how the dogs won the flag. They weren't that experianced

BTW I not expecting flags, I'm expecting to see organised system of play that plays the percentages in each senario. We don't do that very well. And it consistantly cost us games despite having some game dominace.

Also BTW we aren't that young. Lions are young. We have enough experience to play good footy.
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Krakouer Magic 



Joined: 05 Apr 2011


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:00 am
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Re watch the last minutes of the game. Elliot kicks one of the worst kicks in board to the centre square and it almost causes a turnover. We get it back and Elliot blazes away and Patton takes an easy mark. Again, this is not a 1st year player. With 3 mins to go you'd expect a kick down the line and to punch it out. Regroup, rinse and repeat.

Those in board kicks and risks didn't used to happen before Buckley. They happen all the time now in dying minutes of games. See Crisps kick to Grundy vs swans for the turnover and goal to franklin that brought it to a 1 point game. Crisp is not a first year player. Youth is not an excuse. Howe is not a first year player but he still made the choice to kick it poorly to a pack instead of hitting Schade in the pocket and soaking up the clock.

Watch Buckley after the game in the box he says "we're always $$%^%%$ about when the pressure comes on and we always kick to $$%^%%$ contests". And that's accurate from Bucks. Mind you I don't care if they kick to contests next to the boundary so they can punch it out and re group. The problem is they try in board kicks or kicks to centre wing, that if aren't marked, give great opportunity to the opposition to score quickly from the turnover like gws and the swans did to us with less that 2 mins on the clock.

In 2010 we had the youngest side in 30 years to win a flag. We didn't make mindnumbing structural errors and lose close games cause we took careless risks with 2 mins on the clock.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:36 am
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Geez KM, that's good lip reading - I did watch it and I saw him say exactly as you said. I also thought your analysis was very sound. I have jousted with you over Buckley in the past, but your video reviews are certainly thorough and interesting.
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john b 



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Location: melbourne(north)

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:17 pm
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I still can't believe the almighty (mods) have actually allowed this through to the keeper.

It's farking disgusting and wrong.

<Mod edit: Nothing was "allowed through to the keeper". What happened was regrettably lost among the noise and the backlog. Alas, if the Report button is not activated, matters can sometimes slip through the cracks. The matter has now been dealt with. You're welcome. - the bbmods>
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:31 pm
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What's that got to do with [quote] [he or she]Stands and claps[he or she] ? ". "
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john b 



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Location: melbourne(north)

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:35 pm
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Good point Hal... he or she. Which do you prefer?
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:37 pm
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I don't have a preference.
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john b 



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Location: melbourne(north)

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:46 pm
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A sweet little robot in a sexy short silk nightie?
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melliot 



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:17 pm
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Krakouer Magic wrote:
Re watch the last minutes of the game. Elliot kicks one of the worst kicks in board to the centre square and it almost causes a turnover. We get it back and Elliot blazes away and Patton takes an easy mark. Again, this is not a 1st year player. With 3 mins to go you'd expect a kick down the line and to punch it out. Regroup, rinse and repeat.

Those in board kicks and risks didn't used to happen before Buckley. They happen all the time now in dying minutes of games. See Crisps kick to Grundy vs swans for the turnover and goal to franklin that brought it to a 1 point game. Crisp is not a first year player. Youth is not an excuse. Howe is not a first year player but he still made the choice to kick it poorly to a pack instead of hitting Schade in the pocket and soaking up the clock.

Watch Buckley after the game in the box he says "we're always $$%^%%$ about when the pressure comes on and we always kick to $$%^%%$ contests". And that's accurate from Bucks. Mind you I don't care if they kick to contests next to the boundary so they can punch it out and re group. The problem is they try in board kicks or kicks to centre wing, that if aren't marked, give great opportunity to the opposition to score quickly from the turnover like gws and the swans did to us with less that 2 mins on the clock.

In 2010 we had the youngest side in 30 years to win a flag. We didn't make mindnumbing structural errors and lose close games cause we took careless risks with 2 mins on the clock.


Agree mostly. I haven't rewatched but live I thought similar re Elliot. Couldnt believe he took that kick on in those circumstances. That is what costs close games.

I wouldn't know what Buckley would want. I can't work out how he wants them to play. It seems so inconsistent. But either it's a poor senario plan or poor coomunication/instruction/reinforcement of what the plan is. Cos it continues to lose close games.

Either way it comes back to coaching. This stuff was a lot rarer under MM. The had a solid proven plan and stuck to it. And if done well enough it won games.

Not saying we should return to MM plans. But there are some basic elements that stay true today. Had they'd be executed, we'd have the 4 points.

But alas I'm waiting for the inevitable change before I gain some hope of being a good team.
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mooretreloar 



Joined: 21 Sep 2016


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:25 pm
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I don't understand how the posters on this forum have arrived at their thoughts of what a coach's role is. It has me baffled beyond belief.

Tonight on SEN, Cameron Mooney and Terry Wallace, discussed the last 21 seconds of Richmond's loss to Fremantle. In the ten minute discussion of what went wrong, do you know the number of time Hardwick's name was mentioned with respect to blaming him for what went wrong in that 21 seconds? Zero.

This is because it is not in his control. It is in the player's control, they are the ones on the field and posters on this site need to start to understand this.
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Woods 

Buckley - turns boys into men


Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:51 pm
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Coaches deal with strategy - the grand plan that will achieve victory.

The players deal with tactics - the many individual battles that must be won to collectively achieve the strategy. Leading the tactical assault on game day is the captain backed-up by deputies.
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john b 



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Location: melbourne(north)

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:02 am
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john b wrote:
I still can't believe the almighty (mods) have actually allowed this through to the keeper.

It's farking disgusting and wrong.

<Mod edit: Nothing was "allowed through to the keeper". What happened was regrettably lost among the noise and the backlog. Alas, if the Report button is not activated, matters can sometimes slip through the cracks. The matter has now been dealt with. You're welcome. - the bbmods>


Okay sorry didn't know about report button. It's actually the next person I was worried about, thought there would have been some sort of remorse shown by now, but all dealt with. Thanks.
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melliot 



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:24 am
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mooretreloar wrote:
I don't understand how the posters on this forum have arrived at their thoughts of what a coach's role is. It has me baffled beyond belief.

Tonight on SEN, Cameron Mooney and Terry Wallace, discussed the last 21 seconds of Richmond's loss to Fremantle. In the ten minute discussion of what went wrong, do you know the number of time Hardwick's name was mentioned with respect to blaming him for what went wrong in that 21 seconds? Zero.

This is because it is not in his control. It is in the player's control, they are the ones on the field and posters on this site need to start to understand this.


I'm not just talking about the last 2 minutes of the game. it is only an example. there are plenty of others. I'd suggest you watch Carlton play a few games. Probably less talented 22 right now with the youth they are playing. Yet they are much more organised, whether they are winning or losing. We are not organised/coordinated, regardless of youth or talent available or any other excuse.

If you believe the players are mostly at fault, then it is at the end of the day Buckley's created list. So still his problem.

It is subjective opinion at the end of the day, and I (we) won't convince you otherwise. But I feel I've seen enough to make a call (not that its worth anything, cos I can't sack him. All I can do is not turn up in protest).

I'll still support, but I've lost faith/believe in our current direction and trend.
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Lone Ranger 



Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Location: Macedon Ranges

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 am
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mooretreloar wrote:
I don't understand how the posters on this forum have arrived at their thoughts of what a coach's role is. It has me baffled beyond belief.

Tonight on SEN, Cameron Mooney and Terry Wallace, discussed the last 21 seconds of Richmond's loss to Fremantle. In the ten minute discussion of what went wrong, do you know the number of time Hardwick's name was mentioned with respect to blaming him for what went wrong in that 21 seconds? Zero.

This is because it is not in his control. It is in the player's control, they are the ones on the field and posters on this site need to start to understand this.

The coach prescribes the setup for such situations and they train for it.
Either Hardwick hadn't planned for such a scenario, his prescribed setup was poor, he hadnt drilled it into the team well enough, or the players arent good enough.
Either way, a lot of the responsibility lays with the coach.
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September Zeros 



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:41 pm
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The job of a coach is exactly that. To coach an athlete to get the most out of their body and performance.

The coach controls the athletes training program, strategy, planning and preparation.

He does not however control their minds and decision making - that part is up to the athlete.

So I understand that some like MT believe the impact of the coach is negligible on game day.

In individual sport you don't see the coach on the dais accepting the gold medal but rather you simply see the athlete. The coach can do little on the day of competition as his /her work has already been done and it is now up to the athlete to execute.

This dynamic changes, however, when you involve a team of athletes operating under one coach. The reason being is that unlike in an individual sport, the coach can now influence the execution of the the plans, and strategies. Yes the training cannot be manipulated nor can the preparation but the plans and strategies can.

For example - If one athlete is failing to execute the situation is dynamic and that player may be moved / removed to negate the impact of the failure. (ie dragging a player who has lost his cool and just gave away a 50) Likewise if the opposition is dominating a player can be moved or added to negate the impact of their success. (ie Tag Murphy with Greenwood.)

In AFL (a team sport) a coach can very much impact game day and that is why he shares in holding the cup a loft with his captain after a GF win. That said he is not responsible for momentary brain farts that cost games.

I don't think you can blame Buckley for the loss against GWS as he wasn't afforded the luxury to react to failures in an individual passage of play.

Against Carlton however he had time to react to various aspects of the game but simply didn't

I don't think he is currently a good coach - hes too hot and hold and doesn't seem flexible enough.

But be fair. GWS was not, IMO, his fault.

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