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ThePieMind
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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| HAL wrote: | | I am not sure I agree with your assumptions, ThePieMind. |
Sending you budget assumptions as we speak. |
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mooretreloar
Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | mooretreloar wrote: | ^
He may be right, he may be wrong.
What I do know is right is that KM and a lot of his mates blame Buckley for everything under the sun. What I also know is right is that Buckley is not on the ground during play. What I also know is right is that too much blame is apportioned to a coach when things aren't going well and too much credit is given to a coach when things are going well.
What I also know is right that the old coach he keeps rabbiting on about is a self centred and egotistical man, who thinks everything is about him. If I was in charge of the club, I would have sacked him after his Footy Show interview in late 2011.
What I also know is right is that the old coach won 3 flags in 30 odd years, two of them with the WA state side. What I also know is right is the old coach was one of the worst game day and tactical coaches in the history of the game.
However, I agree with you it is extremely frustrating watching us play at the minute, it is pull your hair out stuff. |
I can't speak for the others in the anti Buckley brigade. But I certainly don't blame Buckley for everything under the sun. I just hold him accountable for disorganised on field leadership, poor overall game planning and inability to get the players to execute consistently.
I got plastered on here last year for saying the last second goal to Fitzpatrick in round 23 was a fundamental failure in coaching strategy and on field leadership to flood the backline at the bounce. People on here said it was just bad luck. It wasn't, and I was right. Have a look at what gws did on Saturday night after they got up with 38 on the clock. Most of their players were in the defensive half. I think Cameron was the only one.
Just like I'm right when I say the last 2 minutes of the swans game was piorly handled. Same as the one vs GWS. Howe had schade alone in the pocket. He chose the long bomb, one which was not close enough to the boundary to punch out. He could have also kicked to himself and schade could have blocked for him to get an extra 15 meters up down the line. It's panic stations in the dying minutes of games and when it keeps happening over and over again I put the onus on the coach. Either he is drilling the team poorly and they are disorganised or he is drilling them properly and they don't bother to listen. Either way, it's an indictment on the coach.
As for your thoughts on the previous coach. He may well be a self centred egotistical man. So what? What would you call a 38 year old person whose never coached before pushing to oust a proven quality coach? A guess that 38 year old is just the epitome of selflessness and akin to Jesus?
See you can have a crack at malthouse and it's ok because that's the narrative you want to spin. But god forbid you use the same assessment on Buckley. All I know is our former coach was very good at his job. The current one is not. The next coach better be a good one.
I gave Bucks almost 4 years unqualified support. I bought the lines about needing to change the playing culture. I bought into all the puff pieces in the media saying he had to get his list. And when I looked back what he'd actually achieved in his first 4 seasons I had absolutely zero examples of anything we did on field that resembled a quality football side. And funny enough it was a game vs Sydney that again we failed to close out in 2015 that I decided enough was enough. I made an objective decision that was based on what I saw on the field and read in the media. In regard to his coaching I care sweet FA for what he did as player.
When a simpleton such as myself can analyse and clearly explain the flaws in our structure every week then surely you've got to question the coach when the flaws are never fixed MT? |
Excellent post KM. I understand your view and why others have similar views.
My crack at Malthouse has nothing to do with a narrative that I want to spin. I said the things that I noted for a number of years during his tenure. The former coach was very good at a number of things in his job, not vey good in others. The current coach is the same. I don't believe the current coach was gunning for the old coach's job. The North job was his if he wanted it, but Eddie wanted him at Collingwood and came up with succession plan, which by the way the former coach did not fulfil his end of the bargain. Another example of his self centred and egotistical nature and another big negative from my viewpoint, because I don't rate people who don't do what they say they are going to do. He signed a 5 year deal and only worked 2 of the year's in question. Poor form.
I have made it clear that I have no strong feeling at this stage with respect to Buckley keeping his job or losing his job. His playing career is totally irrelevant to his coaching career. I understand where we were at at the end of 2011, where we were at at the end of 2013 and where we are at currently. What we currently are, is a developing side, which I understand is hard to hear after 3 years and likely to be 4 years out of finals. I also believe that another coach would not be getting any better results given where our list is at. 28 players less than 25 years of age and only five quality or elite players over 25 years of age.
Gary Pert has a lot to answer for with respect to the unrealistic expectations that he has placed on the team in the last three seasons, which in turn leads to supporter's expectations being raised and then not met. Hence, a lot of angst entails.
What I won't cop from you or other posters is the blame apportioned to him for things that are not in his control. The Moore example on the weekend is not in his control. Nor, is the Fitzpatrick example from round 23 last year. Skill errors, poor decision making and inaccurate goal kicking are not in his control. These three reasons are why we are 2-6, not his coaching. I have also not seen any evidence that the players are not playing for him. We are also playing much better football in the first 8 rounds in 2017 compared to the first 8 rounds of 2016. If you don't think this is true, go back and have a look at the losses, especially the way we lost and the margins.
Saying all that, it is unlikely that he will keep his job, as the external noise will mean the club will have to be seen to be doing something and that something more times than not, is sack the coach. If this is what happens just don't expect in the short term results to be much different.
For a developing side, there will be a point where everything clicks and once this point is reached, there is no looking back. For the Dogs, it was their win over Sydney at the SCG in 2015, which was in the 5th year of their rebuild. Credit goes to Beveridge, but most of the credit must also go to McCartney because he did the majority of the hard work, Beveridge just put on the finishing touches. Unfortunately, it is looking like Buckley is going to end up like McCartney, but the sacrifices, and that is what they are, he made for the Collingwood Football Club in his coaching career should not be forgotten. |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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Good post MT but I disagree about the external noise. I think they will make a decision independent of that. I also admire the intestinal fortitude of the man himself. When he says he doesn't listen to any of the external noise I believe him. He is made of sterner stuff. I reckon he isn't gone yet. I reckon he can still redeem himself. If the record between now and round 22 stacks up and the brand we play and execution improves, which for some reason I think it will, I reckon he'll be there next year. Probably Gunna cop a lot of flack for that comment but so be it. Just got a feeling that Saturday night was some sort of turning point for our season.
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'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | mooretreloar wrote: | ^
He may be right, he may be wrong.
What I do know is right is that KM and a lot of his mates blame Buckley for everything under the sun. What I also know is right is that Buckley is not on the ground during play. What I also know is right is that too much blame is apportioned to a coach when things aren't going well and too much credit is given to a coach when things are going well.
What I also know is right that the old coach he keeps rabbiting on about is a self centred and egotistical man, who thinks everything is about him. If I was in charge of the club, I would have sacked him after his Footy Show interview in late 2011.
What I also know is right is that the old coach won 3 flags in 30 odd years, two of them with the WA state side. What I also know is right is the old coach was one of the worst game day and tactical coaches in the history of the game.
However, I agree with you it is extremely frustrating watching us play at the minute, it is pull your hair out stuff. |
I can't speak for the others in the anti Buckley brigade. But I certainly don't blame Buckley for everything under the sun. I just hold him accountable for disorganised on field leadership, poor overall game planning and inability to get the players to execute consistently.
I got plastered on here last year for saying the last second goal to Fitzpatrick in round 23 was a fundamental failure in coaching strategy and on field leadership to flood the backline at the bounce. People on here said it was just bad luck. It wasn't, and I was right. Have a look at what gws did on Saturday night after they got up with 38 on the clock. Most of their players were in the defensive half. I think Cameron was the only one.
Just like I'm right when I say the last 2 minutes of the swans game was piorly handled. Same as the one vs GWS. Howe had schade alone in the pocket. He chose the long bomb, one which was not close enough to the boundary to punch out. He could have also kicked to himself and schade could have blocked for him to get an extra 15 meters up down the line. It's panic stations in the dying minutes of games and when it keeps happening over and over again I put the onus on the coach. Either he is drilling the team poorly and they are disorganised or he is drilling them properly and they don't bother to listen. Either way, it's an indictment on the coach.
As for your thoughts on the previous coach. He may well be a self centred egotistical man. So what? What would you call a 38 year old person whose never coached before pushing to oust a proven quality coach? A guess that 38 year old is just the epitome of selflessness and akin to Jesus?
See you can have a crack at malthouse and it's ok because that's the narrative you want to spin. But god forbid you use the same assessment on Buckley. All I know is our former coach was very good at his job. The current one is not. The next coach better be a good one.
I gave Bucks almost 4 years unqualified support. I bought the lines about needing to change the playing culture. I bought into all the puff pieces in the media saying he had to get his list. And when I looked back what he'd actually achieved in his first 4 seasons I had absolutely zero examples of anything we did on field that resembled a quality football side. And funny enough it was a game vs Sydney that again we failed to close out in 2015 that I decided enough was enough. I made an objective decision that was based on what I saw on the field and read in the media. In regard to his coaching I care sweet FA for what he did as player.
When a simpleton such as myself can analyse and clearly explain the flaws in our structure every week then surely you've got to question the coach when the flaws are never fixed MT? |
Stands and claps
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| melliot wrote: | FWIW I agree with KM. What he is explaining is only one example of failure of teaming/structure/team setup that fails too often.
We rarely win the tight one because of these fundamental issues.
I have plenty of examples of the team consistently not doing the simple things right. Or setting up right to how they want to play. For me when watching live, it is inexplicable frustration watching them play.
It is mostly a coaching problem IMO. |
The Tigers and Hardwick say hello too, a stuff up team if there was ever one. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | [quote="Krakouer Magic"][quote="mooretreloar"]^
He may be right, he may be wrong.
What I do know is right is that KM and a lot of his mates blame Buckley for everything under the sun. What I also know is right is that Buckley is not on the ground during play. What I also know is right is that too much blame is apportioned to a coach when things aren't going well and too much credit is given to a coach when things are going well.
What I also know is right that the old coach he keeps rabbiting on about is a self centred and egotistical man, who thinks everything is about him. If I was in charge of the club, I would have sacked him after his Footy Show interview in late 2011.
What I also know is right is that the old coach won 3 flags in 30 odd years, two of them with the WA state side. What I also know is right is the old coach was one of the worst game day and tactical coaches in the history of the game.
However, I agree with you it is extremely frustrating watching us play at the minute, it is pull your hair out stuff.[/quote]
I can't speak for the others in the anti Buckley brigade. But I certainly don't blame Buckley for everything under the sun. I just hold him accountable for disorganised on field leadership, poor overall game planning and inability to get the players to execute consistently.
I got plastered on here last year for saying the last second goal to Fitzpatrick in round 23 was a fundamental failure in coaching strategy and on field leadership to flood the backline at the bounce. People on here said it was just bad luck. It wasn't, and I was right. Have a look at what gws did on Saturday night after they got up with 38 on the clock. Most of their players were in the defensive half. I think Cameron was the only one.
Just like I'm right when I say the last 2 minutes of the swans game was piorly handled. Same as the one vs GWS. Howe had schade alone in the pocket. He chose the long bomb, one which was not close enough to the boundary to punch out. He could have also kicked to himself and schade could have blocked for him to get an extra 15 meters up down the line. It's panic stations in the dying minutes of games and when it keeps happening over and over again I put the onus on the coach. Either he is drilling the team poorly and they are disorganised or he is drilling them properly and they don't bother to listen. Either way, it's an indictment on the coach.
As for your thoughts on the previous coach. He may well be a self centred egotistical man. So what? What would you call a 38 year old person whose never coached before pushing to oust a proven quality coach? A guess that 38 year old is just the epitome of selflessness and akin to Jesus?
See you can have a crack at malthouse and it's ok because that's the narrative you want to spin. But god forbid you use the same assessment on Buckley. All I know is our former coach was very good at his job. The current one is not. The next coach better be a good one.
I gave Bucks almost 4 years unqualified support. I bought the lines about needing to change the playing culture. I bought into all the puff pieces in the media saying he had to get his list. And when I looked back what he'd actually achieved in his first 4 seasons I had absolutely zero examples of anything we did on field that resembled a quality football side. And funny enough it was a game vs Sydney that again we failed to close out in 2015 that I decided enough was enough. I made an objective decision that was based on what I saw on the field and read in the media. In regard to his coaching I care sweet FA for what he did as player.
When a simpleton such as myself can analyse and clearly explain the flaws in our structure every week then surely you've got to question the coach when the flaws are never fixed MT?[/quote]
[i]Stands and claps[/i] |
It's not profitable to speak in hypothetical terms. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| think positive wrote: | | mooretreloar wrote: | How did Mr Malthouse go at Carlton?
Yes melliot, the team was well drilled under Malthouse. He was also a sensational man manager.
However, his game day coaching and tactical nous on game day were as poor as I have seen in my time of watching football. This cost us multiple games, including the 2011 premiership, with his crowning moment in the 2011 GF: to sub Blair when he was fit and leave Reid on, who couldn't move.
thompsoc, your comments do not deserve a proper response, except to say please go and barrack for another team. |
hang on, didnt you say the coach has no impact on game day??
and truth is that carlton team was crap, no coach could have won with them, and the previous coach got way more out of them thtn he had a right to, he was shafted big time in my opinion.
as for the game, it wasnt Blair slip, it wasnt dunns fault, hell even that shit umpire could not have touched us if we were further in front. how many set shots missed? cant blame that on inexperience, its not an on the run shot, and they should all be dunking them by the time they hit AFL level, hell the orange boy could have hit some of them.
and that last line, go barrack elsewhere? everyone has a right to an opinion, even if they are as wrong as you sometimes are
*thats bait, you taking it! |
Wrong TP, the blue scum got MM in the mistaken belief, post ratten, that they had a team on the verge of a flag, and that MM was the guy to deliver that flag, he even brought over dollar daisy for them, the so called icing on the premiership cake. MM was seen by the scum as the messiah, they honestly thought with a tad fine tuning by the ol fella, the flag was a mere formality. You cant re write history on that sorry saga. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| ThePieMind wrote: | | melliot wrote: | FWIW I agree with KM. What he is explaining is only one example of failure of teaming/structure/team setup that fails too often.
We rarely win the tight one because of these fundamental issues.
I have plenty of examples of the team consistently not doing the simple things right. Or setting up right to how they want to play. For me when watching live, it is inexplicable frustration watching them play.
It is mostly a coaching problem IMO. |
HAWKS won 6 game tight game last year.
WHY - experience, experience, experience.
When we have a core/ stable playing group that have played with each other for an extended period, these mistake will be far fewer.
I've sen BJ, Shaw and many others make fundamental errors in their early days - you can't buy experience, other wise it would be an expense item in every FD budget. |
I think this is it entirely; compare Johnno to Maynard at the same age, and they are pretty similar...just a handful of mistakes from each player seems to be the difference at the moment.
Experience, confidence in oneself, and more importantly, knowing your team mates strengths and weaknesses so well that to kick to advantage becomes instinctive.
We have the list
_________________
"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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mooretreloar
Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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| Damien wrote: | | Good post MT but I disagree about the external noise. I think they will make a decision independent of that. I also admire the intestinal fortitude of the man himself. When he says he doesn't listen to any of the external noise I believe him. He is made of sterner stuff. I reckon he isn't gone yet. I reckon he can still redeem himself. If the record between now and round 22 stacks up and the brand we play and execution improves, which for some reason I think it will, I reckon he'll be there next year. Probably Gunna cop a lot of flack for that comment but so be it. Just got a feeling that Saturday night was some sort of turning point for our season. |
I hope the club is strong enough to ignore the external noise, if they believe Bucks is the best man for the job. Agree, Bucks will not take any notice of the external noise.
If we can win the next two, hopefully we can build some momentum and finish the season strongly, which will hopefully result in Bucks keeping his job. However, if we drop one of the next two, especially if that one is Brisbane, the jungle drums will start to beat louder and louder and anything could eventuate, including Bucks resigning or being sacked. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| mooretreloar wrote: | | Damien wrote: | | Good post MT but I disagree about the external noise. I think they will make a decision independent of that. I also admire the intestinal fortitude of the man himself. When he says he doesn't listen to any of the external noise I believe him. He is made of sterner stuff. I reckon he isn't gone yet. I reckon he can still redeem himself. If the record between now and round 22 stacks up and the brand we play and execution improves, which for some reason I think it will, I reckon he'll be there next year. Probably Gunna cop a lot of flack for that comment but so be it. Just got a feeling that Saturday night was some sort of turning point for our season. |
I hope the club is strong enough to ignore the external noise, if they believe Bucks is the best man for the job. Agree, Bucks will not take any notice of the external noise.
If we can win the next two, hopefully we can build some momentum and finish the season strongly, which will hopefully result in Bucks keeping his job. However, if we drop one of the next two, especially if that one is Brisbane, the jungle drums will start to beat louder and louder and anything could eventuate, including Bucks resigning or being sacked. |
Yes, we absolutely must beat the dawks, lions, and post the bye, have a much better second half of the season. If we can show some real improvement, real improvement ongoing, and say, just miss the finals on percentage, along with four other teams, Bucks may well survive, for one more season. But, if we drop more unloseable games, and show little improvement, I cant see him surviving, I hope we can improve, but I just don't know, time will tell.
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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[img]https://fb-s-b-a.akamaihd.net/h-ak-fbx/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/18402999_10155966853119918_7766875369283508791_n.jpg?oh=0a0efe166313c2c9bc6dd7af4a2f5666&oe=597E23E8&__gda__=1504991644_ebb0413ad9afda8a5ecfb397e0588e8a[/img]
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I am Da Man |
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mooretreloar
Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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| think positive wrote: | | mooretreloar wrote: | How did Mr Malthouse go at Carlton?
Yes melliot, the team was well drilled under Malthouse. He was also a sensational man manager.
However, his game day coaching and tactical nous on game day were as poor as I have seen in my time of watching football. This cost us multiple games, including the 2011 premiership, with his crowning moment in the 2011 GF: to sub Blair when he was fit and leave Reid on, who couldn't move.
thompsoc, your comments do not deserve a proper response, except to say please go and barrack for another team. |
hang on, didnt you say the coach has no impact on game day??
and truth is that carlton team was crap, no coach could have won with them, and the previous coach got way more out of them thtn he had a right to, he was shafted big time in my opinion.
as for the game, it wasnt Blair slip, it wasnt dunns fault, hell even that shit umpire could not have touched us if we were further in front. how many set shots missed? cant blame that on inexperience, its not an on the run shot, and they should all be dunking them by the time they hit AFL level, hell the orange boy could have hit some of them.
and that last line, go barrack elsewhere? everyone has a right to an opinion, even if they are as wrong as you sometimes are
*thats bait, you taking it! |
What I have consistently said is, it is the coach's job to provide the information to the player's pre game and during the week regarding what the opposition is going to try and do. The coach's job on game day is to sort out the glaring issues (eg tag Judd if he is killing us) and counter any tactical moves the opposition coach makes. Mr Malthouse was extremely poor at both these aspects of coaching.
A coach has zero impact on skills, decision making and goalkicking on game day. |
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ROB
Joined: 13 Sep 2016
Location: Sydney
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| ThePieMind wrote: | | melliot wrote: | FWIW I agree with KM. What he is explaining is only one example of failure of teaming/structure/team setup that fails too often.
We rarely win the tight one because of these fundamental issues.
I have plenty of examples of the team consistently not doing the simple things right. Or setting up right to how they want to play. For me when watching live, it is inexplicable frustration watching them play.
It is mostly a coaching problem IMO. |
HAWKS won 6 games by less than a goal in 2016.
WHY - experience, experience, experience.
When we have a core/ stable playing group that have played with each other for an extended period, these mistake will be far fewer.
I've sen BJ, Shaw and many others make fundamental errors in their early days - you can't buy experience, other wise it would be an expense item in every FD budget. |
Concur!
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Toby for President |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| We lost this game in the 2nd quarter when our intensity evaporated. To lay just 7 tackles in a quarter is a disgrace. Clearly Bucks laid into them at half time and fired them up for a fierce 2nd half, which almost got us over the line. So forget about blaming Dunn, Moore, Blair, De Goey or Maynard for individual errors - it was the team's poor 2nd quarter which cost us the game. |
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Cruisinwithdids
Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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| Regardless of the circumstances around one game, 6 years of decline under Buckley speaks for itself. Within that he has been unfortunate with injuries at times ( as were the Bulldogs last year), but he has failed over a long period. We don't get beaten by far, so it's not a lack of effort, but it appears it's a lack of system and a severe lack of flair, with an emphasis on workmanlike recruits from other clubs (Greenwood, Adams, Mayne, Crisp, White). The favourite son experiment (Hird, Voss) rarely ever works, and it's time for ego's to be put aside and change for the good of the club to be implemented. |
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