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Collingwood caught between 2 strategies.

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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:13 am
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
People are missing the point about what Pelchen said. Basically he's saying that when you pick up older players, you impede the development of the younger players on the list. Pelchen was a top recruiter in his day. You have to respect his opinion. I think he gets some things right and some things wrong. The fact that we sit fourth bottom on the ladder supports a lot of the things he says. You don't have to like what he says, but as I said earlier, denigrating him is shooting the messenger.

Not in absolutes, no. It's a balancing act. You need players at the top end of the age list and at the bottom.

We had none at the top (oldest at 29). Recruiting one (Wells) was a sensible move and simply replaced Swan. The other older players (Dunn and Mayne) replaced Brown and Cloke.

So overall there was actually no real change in our age profile from last year.

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:07 pm
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AN_Inkling wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
People are missing the point about what Pelchen said. Basically he's saying that when you pick up older players, you impede the development of the younger players on the list. Pelchen was a top recruiter in his day. You have to respect his opinion. I think he gets some things right and some things wrong. The fact that we sit fourth bottom on the ladder supports a lot of the things he says. You don't have to like what he says, but as I said earlier, denigrating him is shooting the messenger.

You need players at the top end of the age list and at the bottom.

We had none at the top (oldest at 29). Recruiting one (Wells) was a sensible move and simply replaced Swan. The other older players (Dunn and Mayne) replaced Brown and Cloke.



I understand your point inky, but honestly I think this is nonsense. What you need are good players, regardless of their age profiles. Sure, experience generally goes hand in hand with good players, but not always. Organisations (not just footy clubs) who get blinded by metrics, are bound to miss out on great opportunities.
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Johnno75 



Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Location: Wantirna

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:23 pm
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Magpietothemax wrote:
...it was Buckley who led the charge against Travis Cloke...and the lemmings stampeded over the cliff. the loss of Cloke was due to Buckley's demonisation of him. This is the unforgiveable sin in my opionion that will seal Buckley's fate. Darcy Moore by himself in the forward line is an indictment of Buckley, IMHO.


For me this goes back to the end of 2012. We got rid of Dawes and David Cloke was holding us to ransom over his son's contract which should have been a RED FLAG for the club. Jolly was on the way out so we drafted Grundy but we didn't look to draft a young KPF but instead went after recycled players like Lynch and then later on White. Imagine now if we had drafted a young key forward back in that draft with a few years under his belt while Cloke was still around.

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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:06 am
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RudeBoy wrote:
AN_Inkling wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
People are missing the point about what Pelchen said. Basically he's saying that when you pick up older players, you impede the development of the younger players on the list. Pelchen was a top recruiter in his day. You have to respect his opinion. I think he gets some things right and some things wrong. The fact that we sit fourth bottom on the ladder supports a lot of the things he says. You don't have to like what he says, but as I said earlier, denigrating him is shooting the messenger.

You need players at the top end of the age list and at the bottom.

We had none at the top (oldest at 29). Recruiting one (Wells) was a sensible move and simply replaced Swan. The other older players (Dunn and Mayne) replaced Brown and Cloke.



I understand your point inky, but honestly I think this is nonsense. What you need are good players, regardless of their age profiles. Sure, experience generally goes hand in hand with good players, but not always. Organisations (not just footy clubs) who get blinded by metrics, are bound to miss out on great opportunities.


I don't think it's a mistake that a team full of young players has never won a GF. Not even the super talented GWS have managed it, though adding a couple of older players has helped.

And it's more than about onfield play. The older players bring wisdom and maturity that most in their young to mid 20s won't have no matter how good they are.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:25 am
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Johnno75 wrote:
Magpietothemax wrote:
...it was Buckley who led the charge against Travis Cloke...and the lemmings stampeded over the cliff. the loss of Cloke was due to Buckley's demonisation of him. This is the unforgiveable sin in my opionion that will seal Buckley's fate. Darcy Moore by himself in the forward line is an indictment of Buckley, IMHO.


For me this goes back to the end of 2012. We got rid of Dawes and David Cloke was holding us to ransom over his son's contract which should have been a RED FLAG for the club. Jolly was on the way out so we drafted Grundy but we didn't look to draft a young KPF but instead went after recycled players like Lynch and then later on White. Imagine now if we had drafted a young key forward back in that draft with a few years under his belt while Cloke was still around.

Jackson Paine was to be the man.
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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:19 am
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Johnno75 wrote:
Magpietothemax wrote:
...it was Buckley who led the charge against Travis Cloke...and the lemmings stampeded over the cliff. the loss of Cloke was due to Buckley's demonisation of him. This is the unforgiveable sin in my opionion that will seal Buckley's fate. Darcy Moore by himself in the forward line is an indictment of Buckley, IMHO.


For me this goes back to the end of 2012. We got rid of Dawes and David Cloke was holding us to ransom over his son's contract which should have been a RED FLAG for the club. Jolly was on the way out so we drafted Grundy but we didn't look to draft a young KPF but instead went after recycled players like Lynch and then later on White. Imagine now if we had drafted a young key forward back in that draft with a few years under his belt while Cloke was still around.


Disagree. White and Lynch did not stop us bringing in young players. They were brought in to try and keep our age profile at a competitive level, being replacements for Dawes and Brown.

In 2012 we had picks 18-20 in a compromised draft, hardly choice and I don't recall many KPFs being available. Looking in hindsight, there's: Towers, James Stewart, Tim O'Brien, McBean. Further down Membrey. Picking a KPF would probably not have helped us. Also we still had Cloke (on big contract) and Keeffe at the time. Reid may even have been playing forward.

The one to look at is selecting JDG over Peter Wright. I'm for this decision as midfield >>>> KPP, but can understand why some would think we goofed.

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Stinger 



Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: Canberra

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:00 am
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AN_Inkling wrote:
Johnno75 wrote:
Magpietothemax wrote:
...it was Buckley who led the charge against Travis Cloke...and the lemmings stampeded over the cliff. the loss of Cloke was due to Buckley's demonisation of him. This is the unforgiveable sin in my opionion that will seal Buckley's fate. Darcy Moore by himself in the forward line is an indictment of Buckley, IMHO.


For me this goes back to the end of 2012. We got rid of Dawes and David Cloke was holding us to ransom over his son's contract which should have been a RED FLAG for the club. Jolly was on the way out so we drafted Grundy but we didn't look to draft a young KPF but instead went after recycled players like Lynch and then later on White. Imagine now if we had drafted a young key forward back in that draft with a few years under his belt while Cloke was still around.


Disagree. White and Lynch did not stop us bringing in young players. They were brought in to try and keep our age profile at a competitive level, being replacements for Dawes and Brown.

In 2012 we had picks 18-20 in a compromised draft, hardly choice and I don't recall many KPFs being available. Looking in hindsight, there's: Towers, James Stewart, Tim O'Brien, McBean. Further down Membrey. Picking a KPF would probably not have helped us. Also we still had Cloke (on big contract) and Keeffe at the time. Reid may even have been playing forward.

The one to look at is selecting JDG over Peter Wright. I'm for this decision as midfield >>>> KPP, but can understand why some would think we goofed.


We also had Gault on our list - who knew he'd end up have 1000 concussions and never make it. We also had our eye on Moore long term so to pick up lynch FA and white in 2014 seemed logical at the time. As mentioned above - who else was available KPP in compromised drafts. And we also had cloke kicking 68 goals so it was always going to be a player developing in the twos can't see any in 2012 that we missed. The other we had on the list was Jackson Paine who from memory was injured all the time too.
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MagpieBat 



Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Location: Brooding in a cave... somewhere... maybe...

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:37 am
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Paine was scarcely injured. Was our leading goal kicker in the 2nds in both (IIRC) years that he was on the list.

It wasn't concussions that ruined Gault so much as his complete lack of any real talent...

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