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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:35 pm
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So if no one anywhere has successfully created a truly socialist country, what does that say about the concept?
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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:38 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
^ i didn't start off hating, I started off adhering, as many young people do. Then I realized the weight of history against it. You can pretend I don't understand it, but I've read pretty much all of it. Hell, I even read Grundrisse, which must qualify me for the order of Lenin. .....


Lookie here, I read all 3 volumes of Das Capital in Russian & German.


......



No I didn't Wink Razz

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Mugwump 



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:41 pm
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Well, I admire your commitment to the Marxist cause, WPT - that joke about the elephant and the pajamas remains a classic.
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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:42 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
So if no one anywhere has successfully created a truly socialist country, what does that say about the concept?


Nothing at all.

However, don't confuse state authoritarianism with socialism as you were doing.

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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:47 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
So if no one anywhere has successfully created a truly socialist country, what does that say about the concept?


I was lucky to live on a kibbutz post school (gap year) & in my mid 20's for about 6 months with Mrs WPT - & they were first set up as a socialist notion by young idealists well before the notion of an Israel - they were not nationalist in their earliest manifestation. That was quite a fascinating experience.

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Last edited by watt price tully on Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mugwump 



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:47 pm
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^ when it fails it is "state authoritarianism", not Socialism. Cuba ? It's the US's fault. China ? The faith betrayed. East vs .West
Germany - more state authoritarianism, comrade. That's how this game works.

There is no pea under the shells, alas.

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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:58 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
^ when it fails it is "state authoritarianism", not Socialism. Cuba ? It's the US's fault. China ? The faith betrayed. East vs .West
Germany - more state authoritarianism, comrade. That's how this game works.

There is no pea under the shells, alas.


None of this is faith betrayed. They simply were not socialist: end of story. If you don't think East Germany, Zimbabwe, Cuba & East Germany amongst others weren't state authoritarian countries then I'm all ears. They as you know were. They too however were certainly not socialist.

However carry on......I'll get that popcorn.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:11 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
So if no one anywhere has successfully created a truly socialist country, what does that say about the concept?


Nothing at all.

However, don't confuse state authoritarianism with socialism as you were doing.


labels.

it might and apparently can work well in a small community of like minded souls, but the first failure point when you try to put it across a country is that you no longer have a group of like minded souls but a wide community of people with different wants and needs.

Then, to keep it in order, it becomes an authoritarian state by necessity to maintain the ideal, and shatter it at the same time.

it don't work. History proves that.

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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:26 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
So if no one anywhere has successfully created a truly socialist country, what does that say about the concept?


Nothing at all.

However, don't confuse state authoritarianism with socialism as you were doing.


labels.

it might and apparently can work well in a small community of like minded souls, but the first failure point when you try to put it across a country is that you no longer have a group of like minded souls but a wide community of people with different wants and needs.

Then, to keep it in order, it becomes an authoritarian state by necessity to maintain the ideal, and shatter it at the same time.

it don't work. History proves that.


No thats wrong in all respects, with due respect: Your argument assumes incorrectly that there are countries who have been or are socialist. Never was the case. Given your premise is incorrect then so too is your conclusion:

I'll say it again:

Just because a country calls itself socialist does not make itself socialist. In the same way that North Korea is not democratic because it calls itself democratic.

Next.

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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:42 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
Well, I admire your commitment to the Marxist cause, WPT - that joke about the elephant and the pajamas remains a classic.


Ain't no cause Mugwump & I still laugh at Groucho's elephant joke.

I still laugh at Cocoanuts their first film in 1929 from a Stage play of theirs:

Viaduct:

(Starts with Groucho walking on stage)

Groucho: (Looks to stage entrance) Come over here, I want to talk to you. (C enters) Now listen to me, I dont want that red-headed fella running around in the lobby. If you want to keep him in your room, youll have to keep him in a trap.

Chico: I cant catch him.

Groucho: Who is he?

Chico: Hes my partner, but he no speak.

Groucho: Oh, hes your silent partner. Now I can let you have three lots bordering the front, or three lots fronting the border. That cost me $9000 and Im going to let you have it for $15,000. Why? Because I like you.

Chico: Im not going to buy anything.

Groucho: Why not?

Chico: I dont gotta no money. I dont gotta one cent.

Groucho: Then how are you going to pay for your room?

Chico: Thats your lookout.

Groucho: Oh, youre just an idle roomer.

Chico: We come here to make money. We see the paper that says Big boom in Florida. So we come. Were a couple of big booms, too.

Groucho: Im gonna show you how to make some real money. Im gonna hold an auction in a little while at Coconut Manor. You do know what an auction is, dont you?

Chico: Sure. I come over from Italy on the Atlantic Auction.

Groucho: (after a pause) Lets go ahead as if nothing happened. I said were having an auction at Coconut Manor, and when the crowd gathers around, I want you to mingle with them. Dont pick their pockets, just mingle with them-

Chico: Ill find time for both.

Groucho: So we can cut out the auction. If somebody says $100 you say $200. If they say $200 you say $300. Right?

Chico: So I speak up?

Groucho: So if nobody says anything, than you start it off.

Chico: Suppose they dont say anything?

Groucho: Well, theyll notify you. You fool! If they dont say anything, youll hear them, wont you? Well, dont tell them! If we are successful in disposing of these lots, Ill see that you get a nice commission.

Chico: And how about some money?(pats hand for money)

Groucho: Well, you can have your choice. You know what a lot is?

Chico: Yes. Too much.

Groucho: Not a whole lot, just a little lot with nothing on it.

Chico: Anytime you gotta too much, and you gotta a whole lot. OK, sometimes you have enough, sometimes you dont have enough, and sometimes a whole lot. Sometimes you think its a little bit, but somebody else thinks its too much. Too much, a whole lot, a whole lot, too much, same thing.

Groucho: (after a pause) The next time I see you, remind me not to talk with you, will you? Its gonna be a cinch explaining the rest of this thing to you, I can see that.

Chico: I catch on quick.

Groucho: Thats a rodeo youre thinking of. All right, Einstein, heres Coconut Manor. No matter what you say, this is Coconut Manor. Heres Coconut Manor, heres Coconut Heights, thats a swamp, and over here where the road forks is called Coconut Junction.

Chico: Where do you have coconut custard?

Groucho: Thats on one of the forks. You probably eat with your knife, so you dont have to worry about that. Heres the main road leading out of Coconut Manor. Thats the road I wish you were on. Now over here is going to be an eye and ear hospital. Thats going to be a sight for sore eyes. Understand?

Chico: Yeah, thats fine.

Groucho: Now, right over here is the residential section.

Chico: Oh, people live there, eh?

Groucho: No, thats the stockyard. Now all along here is the riverfront. All along the river, those are all levies.

Chico: Thats the Jewish neighborhood?

Groucho: (after a pause)Why dont we pass over that. Youre a peach, boy. Now here is a little peninsula, and over here is a viaduct leading over to the mainland.

Chico: Why a duck?

Groucho: (after a pause)Im fine, how are you? I said this is a viaduct leading over to the mainland.

Chico: All right, why a duck?

Groucho: I say thats a viaduct.

Chico: All right, why a duck? Why a duck? Why not a chicken?

Groucho: Well, I dont know why not a chicken. Im a stranger here myself. I know thats a viaduct. You try to cross over there on a chicken and youll find out why a duck.

Chico: But why-

Groucho: Its deep water, thats why a duck. Look here, suppose you were out horseback riding and you came to that stream and you wanted to ford over. But you cant. Its too deep.

Chico: What would you want with a Ford when you got a horse?

Groucho: (after a pause)Well, Im sorry the matter came up. I just know that thats a viaduct.

Chico: Listen. I catch on to why a horse, why a chicken, why a this, why a that, but I dont catch on to why a duck.

Groucho: I was only fooling. I was only fooling. Theyre going to build a tunnel there in the morning. Is that clear to you?

Chico: Yes, everything except for why a duck.

Groucho: Well, thats fine. Now we can go ahead with this thing. Now in the morning, Im going to take you to our cemetery. Ive got a waiting list of fifty people at that cemetery just dying to get in. But I like you.

Chico: Yeah, youre my friend.

Groucho: I like you, so Im going to show you in ahead of all of them. I want to make sure that you get a steady position. And itll be horizontal. And remember, if somebody says one hundred

Chico: I say two hundred.

Groucho: And if somebody says two hundred

Chico: I say three hundred.

Groucho: Thats great. You know how to get down there?

Chico: No.

Groucho: (pointing off stage) You go down there, down that narrow path there, until you come to that little jungle there. You see it?

Chico: Yeah.

Groucho: Where all those thatch palms are? You see that little clearing in there with a wire fence around it?

Chico: Yeah, but why a fence?

Groucho: Oh no, were not going to go through all that again."

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:44 pm
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Sorry, point missed.

My point was that no country has ever made socialism as you would describe the concept, work.

There has been no socialist countries, according to you.

Why would that be? because it doesn't work.

if it was a viable option, surely by now with all the different governmental models going around, if it was able to work, it would have happened by now.

it's an inherently flawed concept that doesn't work.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:47 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
[quote="Mugwump"]Well, I admire your commitment to the Marxist cause, WPT - that joke about the elephant and the pajamas remains a classic.[/quote]

Ain't no cause Mugwump & I still laugh at Groucho's elephant joke.

[u]I still laugh at Cocoanuts their first film in 1929[/u] from a Stage play of theirs:

Viaduct:

(Starts with Groucho walking on stage)

[i]Groucho: (Looks to stage entrance) Come over here, I want to talk to you. (C enters) Now listen to me, I dont want that red-headed fella running around in the lobby. If you want to keep him in your room, youll have to keep him in a trap.

Chico: I cant catch him.

Groucho: Who is he?

Chico: Hes my partner, but he no speak.

Groucho: Oh, hes your silent partner. Now I can let you have three lots bordering the front, or three lots fronting the border. That cost me $9000 and Im going to let you have it for $15,000. Why? Because I like you.

Chico: Im not going to buy anything.

Groucho: Why not?

Chico: I dont gotta no money. I dont gotta one cent.

Groucho: Then how are you going to pay for your room?

Chico: Thats your lookout.

Groucho: Oh, youre just an idle roomer.

Chico: We come here to make money. We see the paper that says Big boom in Florida. So we come. Were a couple of big booms, too.

Groucho: Im gonna show you how to make some real money. Im gonna hold an auction in a little while at Coconut Manor. You do know what an auction is, dont you?

Chico: Sure. I come over from Italy on the Atlantic Auction.

Groucho: (after a pause) Lets go ahead as if nothing happened. I said were having an auction at Coconut Manor, and when the crowd gathers around, I want you to mingle with them. Dont pick their pockets, just mingle with them-

Chico: Ill find time for both.

Groucho: So we can cut out the auction. If somebody says $100 you say $200. If they say $200 you say $300. Right?

Chico: So I speak up?

Groucho: So if nobody says anything, than you start it off.

Chico: Suppose they dont say anything?

Groucho: Well, theyll notify you. You fool! If they dont say anything, youll hear them, wont you? Well, dont tell them! If we are successful in disposing of these lots, Ill see that you get a nice commission.

Chico: And how about some money?(pats hand for money)

Groucho: Well, you can have your choice. You know what a lot is?

Chico: Yes. Too much.

Groucho: Not a whole lot, just a little lot with nothing on it.

Chico: Anytime you gotta too much, and you gotta a whole lot. OK, sometimes you have enough, sometimes you dont have enough, and sometimes a whole lot. Sometimes you think its a little bit, but somebody else thinks its too much. Too much, a whole lot, a whole lot, too much, same thing.

Groucho: (after a pause) The next time I see you, remind me not to talk with you, will you? Its gonna be a cinch explaining the rest of this thing to you, I can see that.

Chico: I catch on quick.

Groucho: Thats a rodeo youre thinking of. All right, Einstein, heres Coconut Manor. No matter what you say, this is Coconut Manor. Heres Coconut Manor, heres Coconut Heights, thats a swamp, and over here where the road forks is called Coconut Junction.

Chico: Where do you have coconut custard?

Groucho: Thats on one of the forks. You probably eat with your knife, so you dont have to worry about that. Heres the main road leading out of Coconut Manor. Thats the road I wish you were on. Now over here is going to be an eye and ear hospital. Thats going to be a sight for sore eyes. Understand?

Chico: Yeah, thats fine.

Groucho: Now, right over here is the residential section.

Chico: Oh, people live there, eh?

Groucho: No, thats the stockyard. Now all along here is the riverfront. All along the river, those are all levies.

Chico: Thats the Jewish neighborhood?

Groucho: (after a pause)Why dont we pass over that. Youre a peach, boy. Now here is a little peninsula, and over here is a viaduct leading over to the mainland.

Chico: Why a duck?

Groucho: (after a pause)Im fine, how are you? I said this is a viaduct leading over to the mainland.

Chico: All right, why a duck?

Groucho: I say thats a viaduct.

Chico: All right, why a duck? Why a duck? Why not a chicken?

Groucho: Well, I dont know why not a chicken. Im a stranger here myself. I know thats a viaduct. You try to cross over there on a chicken and youll find out why a duck.

Chico: But why-

Groucho: Its deep water, thats why a duck. Look here, suppose you were out horseback riding and you came to that stream and you wanted to ford over. But you cant. Its too deep.

Chico: What would you want with a Ford when you got a horse?

Groucho: (after a pause)Well, Im sorry the matter came up. I just know that thats a viaduct.

Chico: Listen. I catch on to why a horse, why a chicken, why a this, why a that, but I dont catch on to why a duck.

Groucho: I was only fooling. I was only fooling. Theyre going to build a tunnel there in the morning. Is that clear to you?

Chico: Yes, everything except for why a duck.

Groucho: Well, thats fine. Now we can go ahead with this thing. Now in the morning, Im going to take you to our cemetery. Ive got a waiting list of fifty people at that cemetery just dying to get in. But I like you.

Chico: Yeah, youre my friend.

Groucho: I like you, so Im going to show you in ahead of all of them. I want to make sure that you get a steady position. And itll be horizontal. And remember, if somebody says one hundred

Chico: I say two hundred.

Groucho: And if somebody says two hundred

Chico: I say three hundred.

Groucho: Thats great. You know how to get down there?

Chico: No.

Groucho: (pointing off stage) You go down there, down that narrow path there, until you come to that little jungle there. You see it?

Chico: Yeah.

Groucho: Where all those thatch palms are? You see that little clearing in there with a wire fence around it?

Chico: Yeah, but why a fence?

Groucho: Oh no, were not going to go through all that again."[/i]
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:48 pm
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It's not a socialist unless it is nice, apparently. The fact that it has nationalized the means of production, distribution and exchange, the fact that it has outlawed surplus value (aka profit) extraction by capitalists, the fact that it espouses the dictatorship of the proletariat, the fact that it was born out of a revolution by the proletariat, that it meets nearly all of these criteria laid down by .Marx in the Communist Manifesto... these things don't make it Marxist, or communist, they make it "state authoritarian"....

When I use a word, said Humpty Dumpty....

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:52 pm
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A word said Humpty Dumpty ought to work.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:11 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Sorry, point missed.

My point was that no country has ever made socialism as you would describe the concept, work.

There has been no socialist countries, according to you.

Why would that be? because it doesn't work.

if it was a viable option, surely by now with all the different governmental models going around, if it was able to work, it would have happened by now.

it's an inherently flawed concept that doesn't work.


Stui, It's an utterly nonsensical argument. It is not merely an assertion by me but any student of basic marxist theory (apparently Mugwump included - but he can't help himself due to being hateful of his already mentioned manifestations of so called marxist theorists or others etc).

I could not be bothered to go onto explain - you'll need to research it - but it is not uncommon. It is a false assertion to say now matter how used the term that countries are socialist who say they are. In short & not limited to however countries need be industrialised to proceed onto socialism not agrarian or feudal economies that Russia, Zimbabwe, Cuba etc have been. This is a basic element to create the conditions for socialism to exist.

I'm not advocating socialism but will defend it when it is so brazenly misrepresented most often by others who seek to condemn it when they get it so wrong from the outset.

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