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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Has there ever in modern history been a socialist/communist state by whatever name that produced a better standard of living for the average person than modern western 'capitalist' democracies? |
Short answer - no. And nearly all of the serious innovation and progress has come from people pursuing competitive advantage in the capitalist system, or governments subjected to the competitive pressure of war, or collaboration between business and university researchers. Very few came from the Soviet Union (a few space things in the early days maybe), from Communist China, from Cuba, from the GDR or Eastern Europe under Communism, from any of the Bolivarian revolutionary states, from North Korea or Kampuchea. All of those became bywords for oppression, lying, killing, backwardness, environmental poisoning, and general shoddiness.
Under capitalism, Korea, Japan, modern China, Australia, the US, the UK and Western Europe, Singapore and Canada have all regularly contributed inventions that added mightily to human progress. All of these have some social provision of core natural monopoly infrastructure, but overlaid on a fundamentally capitalist economy where people are allowed to get rich if they can serve a market. The verdict of history is rarely so clear as it is on this point.
Those states that pander to the demand for government to do what individuals and families used to do, and which try to protect individuals from all risk through state intervention, however, seem to be progressively bankrupting themselves.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | The exemption of the Soviet Union from the catalogue of Marxist states is quite silly. I know it's often used by those who want to keep the old tinpot Marxist religion going, but it's a classic religious evasion. It did not perfectly meet the template of Marx's ........... |
With respect that is utter claptrap & humpty dumpy indeed as you put it. For a smart bloke your slip is showing. Sheesh
"..did not perfectly fit.... now that type of misleading rhetoric is a clever but devious devise designed to label & thereby trivialize (indeed exactly proving the point I was making) in order for you make other self- serving observations.
For a smart bloke, you seem too wedded to tabloid explanations.
So the GDR was democratic because they call themselves that?
Now I've heard it all well may be not all.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | | Is anyone working tomorrow???! |
I'm at work at time and a half like yesterday.
I work in the real world not in theory (unlike some here) 
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Bruce Gonsalves 
Joined: 05 Jul 2012
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| think positive wrote: | | Is anyone working tomorrow???! |
Yeah, got called out for a 10 minute job. Home within 30 minutes- $150. Would rather have not gone though, have to charge double for a Sunday. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I'm working - can't get any penalty rates, though, not even time and a half: no-one thinks I'm worth $990 an hour. Frankly, I feel hurt, humiliated and offended, so I'm thinking of just keeping Sunday as "family boating day". |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I'm working - can't get any penalty rates, though, not even time and a half: no-one thinks I'm worth $990 an hour. Frankly, I feel hurt, humiliated and offended, so I'm thinking of just keeping Sunday as "family boating day". |
Ha ha, how much do you charge for photocopying say 2 pages?
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I have folk that do that, wpt. Frankly, it'd probably be cheaper to have them copy a document by hand with a quill and ink than for me to photocopy it. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Bruce Gonsalves wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Is anyone working tomorrow???! |
Yeah, got called out for a 10 minute job. Home within 30 minutes- $150. Would rather have not gone though, have to charge double for a Sunday. |
Well that's not love you long time is it? What type of massage service do you call that 
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I have folk that do that, wpt. Frankly, it'd probably be cheaper to have them copy a document by hand with a quill and ink than for me to photocopy it. |
You're not a Charles Dicken Lawyer are you & don't call me Frank
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | I have folk that do that, wpt. Frankly, it'd probably be cheaper to have them copy a document by hand with a quill and ink than for me to photocopy it. |
You're not a Charles Dicken Lawyer are you & don't call me Frank |
Are you suggesting that we're still charging 19th century rates? It has been a while since there was a significant pay rise.... |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | The exemption of the Soviet Union from the catalogue of Marxist states is quite silly. I know it's often used by those who want to keep the old tinpot Marxist religion going, but it's a classic religious evasion. It did not perfectly meet the template of Marx's ........... |
With respect that is utter claptrap & humpty dumpy indeed as you put it. For a smart bloke your slip is showing. Sheesh
"..did not perfectly fit.... now that type of misleading rhetoric is a clever but devious devise designed to label & thereby trivialize (indeed exactly proving the point I was making) in order for you make other self- serving observations.
For a smart bloke, you seem too wedded to tabloid explanations.
So the GDR was democratic because they call themselves that?
Now I've heard it all well may be not all. |
It didn't perfectly fit the template in one respect (it did not come after full-blown capitalism). That's because history shows that Marx's theory was just balls-out wrong on that point. It's like saying a woolly mammoth is not elephantine because the true elephants can only come after the ice age.
What I really hate about Marxism is that it purports to be humanistic and progressive and generous, while being the opposite in all practice. It is like a paedophile Santa.
The one thing that salvages Marx the philosopher from Marxism is the fact that he probably did not foresee, or intend, the misery that others would inflict using his "nice try but no cigar" theory.
"Tabloid explanations" ? Hardly.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Has there ever in modern history been a socialist/communist state by whatever name that produced a better standard of living for the average person than modern western 'capitalist' democracies? |
Short answer - no. |
that's what I thought.
So the next question is, why do people still think it is a viable system?
I take on board David's point early about balance and i agree with it. A lot of people would suffer in a pure capitalist society but pretty much everyone suffers in a socialist/communist one because the theory doesn't work for societies larger than a few hundred people.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | The exemption of the Soviet Union from the catalogue of Marxist states is quite silly. I know it's often used by those who want to keep the old tinpot Marxist religion going, but it's a classic religious evasion. It did not perfectly meet the template of Marx's ........... |
With respect that is utter claptrap & humpty dumpy indeed as you put it. For a smart bloke your slip is showing. Sheesh
"..did not perfectly fit.... now that type of misleading rhetoric is a clever but devious devise designed to label & thereby trivialize (indeed exactly proving the point I was making) in order for you make other self- serving observations.
For a smart bloke, you seem too wedded to tabloid explanations.
So the GDR was democratic because they call themselves that?
Now I've heard it all well may be not all. |
It didn't perfectly fit the template in one respect (it did not come after full-blown capitalism). That's because history shows that Marx's theory was just balls-out wrong on that point. It's like saying a woolly mammoth is not elephantine because the true elephants can only come after the ice age.
What I really hate about Marxism is that it purports to be humanistic and progressive and generous, while being the opposite in all practice. It is like a paedophile Santa.
The one thing that salvages Marx the philosopher from Marxism is the fact that he probably did not foresee, or intend, the misery that others would inflict using his "nice try but no cigar" theory.
"Tabloid explanations" ? Hardly. |
If you start off hating then there is no basis for clear thinking. This is evidenced by your less than adequate understanding of Marxist critique. I'm not a Marxist but would be embarrassed to post what you've done so far about Marxism: Posting such words as "dialectical materialism" is no substitute for an understanding.
In my view, it was not a nice try & definitely no cigar; it was shallow & unlike some other of your responses to other subjects.
I've studied Burke too & I've known a few conservative Burkes in my time
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ i didn't start off hating, I started off adhering, as many young people do. Then I realized the weight of history against it. You can pretend I don't understand it, but I've read pretty much all of it. Hell, I even read Grundrisse, which must qualify me for the order of Lenin. If you're going to tell me I do not understand it, you'll need to do more than assert that to be credible.
If you think I am wrong, it would be better to make an actual argument, rather than throwing out words like shallow, tabloid as though they are more than your emotions.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Has there ever in modern history been a socialist/communist state by whatever name that produced a better standard of living for the average person than modern western 'capitalist' democracies? |
Short answer - no. |
that's what I thought.
So the next question is, why do people still think it is a viable system?
I take on board David's point early about balance and i agree with it. A lot of people would suffer in a pure capitalist society but pretty much everyone suffers in a socialist/communist one because the theory doesn't work for societies larger than a few hundred people. |
Now if you like simple responses to Dorothy dix questions you might like Mugwumps reply. However your original Dorothy Dix questions suffers from the same error of fact that is implicit if not explicit in Mugwumps reply.
If you start off with a flawed premise (in your case the implicit question about socialist countries economies)
1. There have been no socialist countries that I'm aware of.
2. Because a country calls themselves socialist does not make them socialist in the same way that the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is not democratic.
3. Any decent student of marxist theory will tell you that no country especially not Russia (won't go in to it here) was never socialist.
4. For some reason the term capitalism is allowed to be seen as adaptable, changeable etc. yet socialism is not allowed by many to also show adaptable traits & features.
5. Why not use the examaples of say Scandinavian countries (despite their insufferable smugness) as a form of democratic socialism showing how areas where notions of socialism & capitalism can co-exist: not models of a perfect society ( no such thing ) but a pretty good a lot of the time where basic things like health care, housing, education & transport etc are pretty democratic .
6. Mind you a cup of latte & chardonnay may well be out of the question especially in relation to cutting low paid workers wages on weekends
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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