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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Culprit wrote: | | If we are serious then penalty rates as a whole get removed. We only wish to take away from those that can least afford it. That's the Liberal way and it's dumb economics. If you take $3000 dollars away that is $3000 that isn't spent. You don't put more staff on as your workload hasn't changed. Nothing like the gullible who think it's great. I loved one cafe owner said great, he could now take Sundays off. As someone that's had a business I can tell you it will come back and bite that idiot in the ass. You tell your staff I'm cutting your pay you then take the day off and leave them with the till in a cash driven business. Fckn madness. Here we are with the lowest wage growth for decades. Taxable income is down, we are cutting business tax and the LNP wonder why the deficit is blowing our. Surely you Liberal supporters have to be seeing this. But hey, you won't get your cafe latte cheaper and nor will the businesses drop the Sunday surcharge. |
Correct weight Culprit.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Culprit wrote: | | If we are serious then penalty rates as a whole get removed. We only wish to take away from those that can least afford it. That's the Liberal way and it's dumb economics. If you take $3000 dollars away that is $3000 that isn't spent. You don't put more staff on as your workload hasn't changed. Nothing like the gullible who think it's great. I loved one cafe owner said great, he could now take Sundays off. As someone that's had a business I can tell you it will come back and bite that idiot in the ass. You tell your staff I'm cutting your pay you then take the day off and leave them with the till in a cash driven business. Fckn madness. Here we are with the lowest wage growth for decades. Taxable income is down, we are cutting business tax and the LNP wonder why the deficit is blowing our. Surely you Liberal supporters have to be seeing this. But hey, you won't get your cafe latte cheaper and nor will the businesses drop the Sunday surcharge. |
You might or might not be right that it is fair or unfair to Sunday workers, but the above economic analysis is not really correct.
If you take $3000 pa away from a Sunday worker, the majority of this will go back to customers, assuming the market is competitive. The customers are then $3000 richer and they will spend it on another coffee, or a night at the theatre, or whatever. If higher wages for everyone created demand, then we could all make ourselves rich and be fully employed rather easily. Even if the boss appropriates the extra $3000 s/he is likely to spend most of it in the form of reinvestment or on his/her personal consumption. So this idea that penalty rates somehow "create" $3000 of spending is not true at the level of the economy overall.
Penalty rates also make certain forms of business non-viable on Sunday as customers will choose not to pay the higher prices, and/or management will find that opening is uneconomic. This therefore reduces overall demand for labour and the supply of goods and services at a macro level. And that reduces taxation revenues, rather than increasing them as you suggest.
As for wages growth, well, sustainable real wage growth, in the end, only comes from productivity. It does not come from penalty rates (except insofar as inflated wage costs act as a spur to automation and labour-replacement). There are probably many reasons why real wage growth is stalling - the decline of unions and manufacturing, plus mass low-skill immigration being the main ones, I suspect.
At the firm level, your supposed Sunday caf owner may or may not be wise to leave staff on lower penalty rates in charge. But if you run a cash driven business and you do not have effective cash management and stock accounting processes, and you hire people with the (lack of) character to steal from you, then you are probably not going to be in business very long regardless of Sunday rates.
Penalty rates are largely an allocation question, shifting money (in the form of higher prices) from those who work Monday to Friday to those who work weekends. They also act to reduce both supply and demand for Goods and services, because they are premised on the idea that the worker's leisure is worth more on weekends, and that therefore weekend time is better spent on leisure than on consumption and production.
Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of social mores and coercive bargaining power, rather than economic theory. Penalty rates are a slightly odd idea in the modern world, but then lots of odd things are accepted because they are "just how it is/was".
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | If we are serious then penalty rates as a whole get removed. We only wish to take away from those that can least afford it. That's the Liberal way and it's dumb economics. If you take $3000 dollars away that is $3000 that isn't spent. You don't put more staff on as your workload hasn't changed. Nothing like the gullible who think it's great. I loved one cafe owner said great, he could now take Sundays off. As someone that's had a business I can tell you it will come back and bite that idiot in the ass. You tell your staff I'm cutting your pay you then take the day off and leave them with the till in a cash driven business. Fckn madness. Here we are with the lowest wage growth for decades. Taxable income is down, we are cutting business tax and the LNP wonder why the deficit is blowing our. Surely you Liberal supporters have to be seeing this. But hey, you won't get your cafe latte cheaper and nor will the businesses drop the Sunday surcharge. |
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Penalty rates are really an allocation question, ...... |
Indeed.
I said before it's not linear & there are anomalies but in the main it's taking away money from the less well off & giving it to the more well off.
Another example of class warfare, comrade. Oh wait that's what the libs hypocritically label others when this type of thing is brought up. Trust me I know about hypocrisy (oops   )
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Actually I was amending my post when you commented, because I was not quite precise in my original post on that point. They are only partly an allocation question, though that is an important aspect. They also clearly have overall effects on supply and demand.
And I am not especially interested in defending the Neo-Liberal Party, which I would not vote for, if I had to vote in Australia - which I am glad I do not, as there is no-one who represents my views. I agree that the LP are a pretty scabrous lot.
I just think that we need to understand economics well, when we invoke it. Closed-system economic thinking is hard to avoid, for all of us.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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I don't undertand the angst against Coles/Woolworths etc when the scan your own groceries is accepted without a yelp. Is there a discount for doing so, no way. If the public want 7 days a week full service they shouldn't whinge when their kids get screwed and will never buy a house because of negative gearing parents. Those organisations should be hounded for screwing the producers of food not this.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The thing that's disappointed me in all this is that I've seen little attempt by anyone in a position of authority to advocate for a wage rise to make up for the reduced penalty rates. Perhaps there's a presumption that the unions will do that, but given the government have been pushing this issue so hard (while promising that workers won't be worse off), they should have been putting some effort into the other side of the process.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | The thing that's disappointed me in all this is that I've seen little attempt by anyone in a position of authority to advocate for a wage rise to make up for the reduced penalty rates. Perhaps there's a presumption that the unions will do that, but given the government have been pushing this issue so hard (while promising that workers won't be worse off), they should have been putting some effort into the other side of the process. |
Good point, how could they not be worse off!
Ah well, such a beautiful day, hubby is off to replace light tubes in a cold store for 6 to 8 hours, I've got a mountain of small business paperwork to do! (But I pretty much took Friday off) What day is it?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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| David wrote: | | The thing that's disappointed me in all this is that I've seen little attempt by anyone in a position of authority to advocate for a wage rise to make up for the reduced penalty rates. Perhaps there's a presumption that the unions will do that, but given the government have been pushing this issue so hard (while promising that workers won't be worse off), they should have been putting some effort into the other side of the process. |
WA premier Colin Barnett has stated that is the obvious solution re
State awards. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| partypie wrote: | | David wrote: | | The thing that's disappointed me in all this is that I've seen little attempt by anyone in a position of authority to advocate for a wage rise to make up for the reduced penalty rates. Perhaps there's a presumption that the unions will do that, but given the government have been pushing this issue so hard (while promising that workers won't be worse off), they should have been putting some effort into the other side of the process. |
WA premier Colin Barnett has stated that is the obvious solution re
State awards. |
Modern Awards are a federal safety net provision. Victoria doesn't have state awards, we ceded our Industrial relations power to the feds back in Kennett's day.
WA still has state awards, they can do what they like.
Most people in the federal system are paid under Enterprise agreement rates, but small business doesn't have those, it's too fiddly to negotiate EA's with every mum and dad shop.
As far as giving people a wage rise to compensate for the reduction in Sunday penalties, who do you give it to?
Salaries under Modern Awards are reviewed each year by Fair Work Aus when they do the annual wage review. last year, the minimum wage, including rates in modern awards, was increased by 2.6%
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | If we are serious then penalty rates as a whole get removed. We only wish to take away from those that can least afford it. That's the Liberal way and it's dumb economics. If you take $3000 dollars away that is $3000 that isn't spent. You don't put more staff on as your workload hasn't changed. Nothing like the gullible who think it's great. I loved one cafe owner said great, he could now take Sundays off. As someone that's had a business I can tell you it will come back and bite that idiot in the ass. You tell your staff I'm cutting your pay you then take the day off and leave them with the till in a cash driven business. Fckn madness. Here we are with the lowest wage growth for decades. Taxable income is down, we are cutting business tax and the LNP wonder why the deficit is blowing our. Surely you Liberal supporters have to be seeing this. But hey, you won't get your cafe latte cheaper and nor will the businesses drop the Sunday surcharge. |
.......
Penalty rates are really an allocation question, ...... |
Indeed.
I said before it's not linear & there are anomalies but in the main it's taking away money from the less well off & giving it to the more well off.
Another example of class warfare, comrade. Oh wait that's what the libs hypocritically label others when this type of thing is brought up. Trust me I know about hypocrisy (oops ) |
So, explain to me your reasoning why Sunday penalty rates should be higher than Saturday.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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Not one is yet to explain how any new jobs will be created.
As a previous small business owner I never employed anyone extra if I had more money unless my sales increased. If you crap on your worker he will crap on you back. You can't just say sorry I am taking $50 off you on Sunday's but I still want you to turn up on time and be a loyal productive worker. Obviously some have never dealt hands on with people. Staff can make or break your business. If we go on the estimated 700,000 that will lose $2000 per year. That is $1,400,000,000 less that gets spent in real terms as low income workers spend virtually 100% of their income. I love how the people who never work Sundays come out with Sunday is just a normal day. OK let's remove Penalty rates from all the emergency services.
I would suggest that Malcolm Trumbles polling will take a bigger dive. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Culprit wrote: | Not one is yet to explain how any new jobs will be created.
As a previous small business owner I never employed anyone extra if I had more money unless my sales increased. If you crap on your worker he will crap on you back. You can't just say sorry I am taking $50 off you on Sunday's but I still want you to turn up on time and be a loyal productive worker. Obviously some have never dealt hands on with people. Staff can make or break your business. If we go on the estimated 700,000 that will lose $2000 per year. That is $1,400,000,000 less that gets spent in real terms as low income workers spend virtually 100% of their income. I love how the people who never work Sundays come out with Sunday is just a normal day. OK let's remove Penalty rates from all the emergency services.
I would suggest that Malcolm Trumbles polling will take a bigger dive. |
Bingo, my point of view.
And still, every time there is an election, and tax rates come into discussion, everyone is up in arms about the higher brackets not getting taxed enough, and the lower bracket copping the crap as usual. So I just don't understand why everyone is happy that the lowest of the low will now lose $2000 a year, and no one but the employer will benefit. Your coffee won't get cheaper. That $2000 is going to do more damage than it will give benefit.
When we have to do jobs on a Sunday and have to employ help with it, we always pay double time, and we charge the client.
Life is too fast, family time is precious, kids are at school, parents are at work, that's why Sunday is sacred to me, nothing at all to do with religion. plenty of families still do a version of the traditional Sunday dinner. I don't want to live in a 24 hour world of convenience. The cost is too high.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Culprit wrote: | Not one is yet to explain how any new jobs will be created.
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Actually i did above, but you either did not like the answer, or did not read it. High wage rates are a disincentive for businesses to open on Sunday, reducing the demand for labour and reducing the usage of productive assets such as stores, machines etc. The idea that higher wages for a few people for working on one particular day raises demand in the economy is a fallacy. You might have a slight point that lower-paid workers tend to have a higher marginal propensity to spend, but there are better ways to deal with that than this rather arbitrary allocation mechanism in favour of Sunday workers.
That does not mean that it is not a reasonable choice to keep Sunday quiet, if that is what we value as a society. But first-year economic theory and common-sense says that higher wages on one day will tend to reduce jobs on that day. The roots of penalty rates are in the idea that Sundays are a religious holiday and therefore capitalists and workers should be discouraged from working that day unless it is really necessary.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: |
So, explain to me your reasoning why Sunday penalty rates should be higher than Saturday. |
don't see why Sunday rates should be higher than Saturday I work at a business where we get no penalty rates for Saturday at all and double time for Sundays, so I'd be more than happy if both days were time and a half instead.
This is a bit of a distraction, though, because nobody is proposing equalising Saturday and Sunday rates. The point is that weekend rates as a whole are being reduced.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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