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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Lets also keep in mind that there are people for whom it's not practical to work during the week. For a family with children and one parent at home, for the other to work during the week means they have to pay daycare, when working evenings and/or weekends means free daycare from the other parent or even other family members.
Students are at school during the week, so if they want to work it's evenings and/or weekends.
As P4S said so eloquently, why really should they be paid more for doing the same work?
WPT, where you work is obviously squirrel ville on weekends and weekend evenings in particular. What about a Nurse in a gen med ward though? Night shift with everyone sleeping, just doing obs and checking in case something goes wrong. Far easier work than the same ward during the weekday, yet they get paid a lot more. And for many, it's a choice as again they don't have to pay daycare as the partner is home with the kids.
Clearly it's not a straight forward argument. |
First Stui this doesn't apply to nurses because you can't shoot Bambi as a tactic to cut workers wages: start with the easiest target & the most vulnerable that is, retail & hospitality.
Second I think your argument supports mine: people working weekends to make ends meet when they are unable to during the week - due to childcare costs etc. The main breadwinner at home on weekends etc, why should they lose out?
Why should school or uni students miss out on weekends which ultimately means more money to be spent in the economy
Gen med ward at night people with sleeping is paid for by lesser nurses employed that is, lesser nurse pt ratio. Not always easy & the hours are disgraceful to work - balances out. BTW the acuity of pt's these days in hospital is far higher that what it was 20 - 30 years ago.
I don't see what you've said makes it reasonable to cut workers wages merely to give more money to employers.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | WPT, where you work is obviously squirrel ville on weekends and weekend evenings in particular. What about a Nurse in a gen med ward though? Night shift with everyone sleeping, just doing obs and checking in case something goes wrong. Far easier work than the same ward during the weekday, yet they get paid a lot more. . |
 spoken like someone who has never done a night shift in a gen med ward!
Sorry but that is just wrong - the patient population who in general have less mobility still need to go to the toilet, incontinence doesn't disappear when the sun goes down, lots of drugs including antis that have to be given, lots of dressings that have to be done at specific times, lots of diabetics who require monitoring, IVT, blood transfusions especially if you have H & M patients and there is always the increased confusion of patients with dementia or delirium - all with less staff!
Fewer medical staff so less consultations, diagnostic tests, admissions and discharges, no allied health staff and very few visitors that make a ward busier during the day.
Until the banks and government depts like Vic Roads, ATO, Centrelink, Medicare etc are all open on the weekends then working on the weekend should attract penalty rates - the same rate for Sat and Sun - IMHO I cannot think of one valid reason why Sunday penalty rates should be higher!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | Lets also keep in mind that there are people for whom it's not practical to work during the week. For a family with children and one parent at home, for the other to work during the week means they have to pay daycare, when working evenings and/or weekends means free daycare from the other parent or even other family members.
Students are at school during the week, so if they want to work it's evenings and/or weekends.
As P4S said so eloquently, why really should they be paid more for doing the same work?
WPT, where you work is obviously squirrel ville on weekends and weekend evenings in particular. What about a Nurse in a gen med ward though? Night shift with everyone sleeping, just doing obs and checking in case something goes wrong. Far easier work than the same ward during the weekday, yet they get paid a lot more. And for many, it's a choice as again they don't have to pay daycare as the partner is home with the kids.
Clearly it's not a straight forward argument. |
whoooee i dont think id go there!
but thats another story - the workers missing out are not high paid salary earners, will it really make that much difference to the wage payer? as much difference as it will to the worker?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I keep seeing that these people are low paid workers so it isn't fair.
That has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone should be paid more for working on Sunday than Saturday or in fact why weekend penalties should apply at all. They're two separate arguments in my mind.
Low skill jobs with a ready supply of labour get low pay. Should they get paid more? Probably, but then relativity kicks in and everyone else wants a payrise.
Most small business owners aren't exactly minting it, they work seriously long hours, have to pay rent, utilities, stock/produce, wages and then hopefully make enough on top to pay their own bills, feed their own family etc.
Big business profits go to shareholders, AKA most people who have superannuation.
You want to pay retail staff more? Are you prepared to pay higher prices to pay for it? The owners aren't going to absorb it.
You want to pay hospitality staff more? Leave a tip. Again, the meal costs more.
The economy isn't a magic pudding.
BTW, I threw Nurses into the argument only because WPT threw in his experience of weekend work which is hardly indicative of the majority of Nurses. And Morrigu, if it's so busy on night shift, how come I consistently see people who work regular nights unable to cope when switched to day shift?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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| Morrigu wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | WPT, where you work is obviously squirrel ville on weekends and weekend evenings in particular. What about a Nurse in a gen med ward though? Night shift with everyone sleeping, just doing obs and checking in case something goes wrong. Far easier work than the same ward during the weekday, yet they get paid a lot more. . |
spoken like someone who has never done a night shift in a gen med ward!
Sorry but that is just wrong - the patient population who in general have less mobility still need to go to the toilet, incontinence doesn't disappear when the sun goes down, lots of drugs including antis that have to be given, lots of dressings that have to be done at specific times, lots of diabetics who require monitoring, IVT, blood transfusions especially if you have H & M patients and there is always the increased confusion of patients with dementia or delirium - all with less staff!
Fewer medical staff so less consultations, diagnostic tests, admissions and discharges, no allied health staff and very few visitors that make a ward busier during the day.
Until the banks and government depts like Vic Roads, ATO, Centrelink, Medicare etc are all open on the weekends then working on the weekend should attract penalty rates - the same rate for Sat and Sun - IMHO I cannot think of one valid reason why Sunday penalty rates should be higher! |
Yeah, bit of a risky comment there Stui. I'm sure the HR department is probably pretty quiet overnight but the 8 days I spent in hospital - night time didn't include "everyone sleeping". There was so much noise & kerfuffle that I think I slept more during the day! Lots of patients awake, lots of machines beeping & needing attention & lots of nurse activity.
Might want to make a little correction there 
edit: started this before Stui had posted, still stand by it after Stui's post. But I got caught up at work halfway through the post. Still at work, after 6pm on a Saturday - which I don't get paid for  |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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/\ the last line!! LOL!!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | And Morrigu, if it's so busy on night shift, how come I consistently see people who work regular nights unable to cope when switched to day shift? |
That's a very simplistic and judgmental view - you assume that they can't cope because they are used to not being busy on nights?
Days and evenings are very different to nights - as I said more admissions or discharges, tests, more doctors around, more visitors - the nursing care required at night is the same as the day and provided with less staff - but there is certainly less administrative stuff. Maybe they don't like that - certainly why I gave up being a NUM!
Maybe their body clocks are still on "night" time or maybe the orientation and training provided is substandard?
And I consistently saw people who couldn't cope with night duty because they had to time manage a lot more than days where there are more hands on deck especially if a patient deteriorates and many couldn't stay awake and alert - which you sorta want if someone is doing med calcs and giving drugs especially IV ones or some couldn't adjust and sleep during the day so turned up like zombies or just rang in sick.
Or maybe they were not effective on nights either but hidden from sight
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
Last edited by Morrigu on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | I keep seeing that these people are low paid workers so it isn't fair.
That has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone should be paid more for working on Sunday than Saturday or in fact why weekend penalties should apply at all. They're two separate arguments in my mind.
Low skill jobs with a ready supply of labour get low pay. Should they get paid more? Probably, but then relativity kicks in and everyone else wants a payrise.
Most small business owners aren't exactly minting it, they work seriously long hours, have to pay rent, utilities, stock/produce, wages and then hopefully make enough on top to pay their own bills, feed their own family etc.
Big business profits go to shareholders, AKA most people who have superannuation.
You want to pay retail staff more? Are you prepared to pay higher prices to pay for it? The owners aren't going to absorb it.
You want to pay hospitality staff more? Leave a tip. Again, the meal costs more.
The economy isn't a magic pudding.
BTW, I threw Nurses into the argument only because WPT threw in his experience of weekend work which is hardly indicative of the majority of Nurses. And Morrigu, if it's so busy on night shift, how come I consistently see people who work regular nights unable to cope when switched to day shift? |
Still think your a little hard on retail and waiting staff, just to clarify they will still get time and a half? But not double? I was going to mention tipping then I saw you did! But that won't help retail staff. Will it mean extra weekend staff? They are pretty thin on the ground now, but I guess some of that is down to online shopping
Cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Morrigu wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | And Morrigu, if it's so busy on night shift, how come I consistently see people who work regular nights unable to cope when switched to day shift? |
That's a very simplistic and judgmental view - you assume that they can't cope because they are used to not being busy on nights?
Days and evenings are very different to nights - as I said more admissions or discharges, tests, more doctors around, more visitors - the nursing care required at night is the same as the day and provided with less staff - but there is certainly less administrative stuff. Maybe they don't like that - certainly why I gave up being a NUM!
Maybe their body clocks are still on "night" time or maybe the orientation and training provided is substandard?
And I consistently saw people who couldn't cope with night duty because they had to time manage a lot more than days where there are more hands on deck especially if a patient deteriorates and many couldn't stay awake and alert - which you sorta want if someone is doing med calcs and giving drugs especially IV ones or some couldn't adjust and sleep during the day so turned up like zombies or just rang in sick.
Or maybe they were not effective on nights either but hidden from sight |
I'm guessing the latter from the ones I've had to deal with
And look, Nurses are great. Some of them are even very intelligent. Can we move away from Nurses and back to the point of why weekend work should be paid more?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ Sure 
I still think that until the banks and government depts like Vic Roads, ATO, Centrelink, Medicare etc are all open on the weekends then working on the weekend should attract penalty rates - the same rate for Sat and Sun!
I understand the historical reasons why Sunday attracted higher rates but they are no longer applicable - I cannot think of one valid reason and have not heard one valid reason why Sunday penalty rates should be higher 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Morrigu wrote: | ^ Sure
I still think that until the banks and government depts like Vic Roads, ATO, Centrelink, Medicare etc are all open on the weekends then working on the weekend should attract penalty rates - the same rate for Sat and Sun!
I understand the historical reasons why Sunday attracted higher rates but they are no longer applicable - I cannot think of one valid reason and have not heard one valid reason why Sunday penalty rates should be higher |
So therefore, the action from FWA to cut Sunday rates was right?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ in the absence of a rational valid argument as to why Sunday should attract higher penalty rates than Saturday - then yes!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Agreed.
As far as weekend penalties go in general, I think that those on a rotating roster who have to work weekends should get some penalty payment but other than that, same rates.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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The AFL and associated parasites in the catering pay staff more for Sundays particularly those awful timeslots that the fans and players don't like.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| If we are serious then penalty rates as a whole get removed. We only wish to take away from those that can least afford it. That's the Liberal way and it's dumb economics. If you take $3000 dollars away that is $3000 that isn't spent. You don't put more staff on as your workload hasn't changed. Nothing like the gullible who think it's great. I loved one cafe owner said great, he could now take Sundays off. As someone that's had a business I can tell you it will come back and bite that idiot in the ass. You tell your staff I'm cutting your pay you then take the day off and leave them with the till in a cash driven business. Fckn madness. Here we are with the lowest wage growth for decades. Taxable income is down, we are cutting business tax and the LNP wonder why the deficit is blowing our. Surely you Liberal supporters have to be seeing this. But hey, you won't get your cafe latte cheaper and nor will the businesses drop the Sunday surcharge. |
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