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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:19 pm
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The past and future are one.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:10 pm
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Are one what?
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David Libra

I dare you to try


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:58 am
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
David wrote:
Wokko wrote:
I care less about the finances of a Billionaire who went into politics than politicians who have become multi-millionaires while on a congressional salary.

If Trump is guilty of dodgy financial dealings as a real estate mogul and that's all they've got on him then nobody will give a shit except deranged democrats who want him executed for the crime of being a Republican already. Cohen shot down the Russia narrative, in effect exonerating Trump. The rest is just theatre.


Nobody, in that case, except for the law. You don't think that the prospect of a president being prosecuted for financial crimes might cause problems for him?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/02/27/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-michael-cohen-testimony-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/michael-cohen-testimony/


So does this mean that the Hilary-financed Trump/Russia conspiracy is officially dead? Credit to Dore and a few others on the left who called "bullshit" from early on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hgWSrvXxzs


It's not over until Mueller completes his investigation, but the impression I get is that it is fizzling out and that the whole thing will, as I've suspected for a long time, turn out to be a whole pile of nothing.

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Pies4shaw Leo

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 am
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Except, perhaps for the 34 people indicted, including at least half a dozen of Trump's closest allies.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:21 am
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Touché! But when you look at what they've been convicted of, it's often fairly obscure; stuff like lying to congress about fairly small-scale stuff, trying to obstruct the investigation itself, and so on. Of course, it helps that most of them were crooks and grifters to begin with; they were always going to do something dodgy in the process, no matter how inept or pointless that process was.

I think The New York Times' token conservative columnist sums it up pretty well here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/michael-cohen-steele-dossier.html

Quote:
Cohen’s testimony dovetailed with the always-more-plausible narrative in which Trump and his circle weren’t collaborators but fools and wannabes, who might have been willing to play games with spies and hackers, but who mostly just bumbled around haplessly on the sidelines.

This is what you can see happening in the Trump Tower Moscow project, so far as I can tell — instead of Putin offering Trump a sweetheart deal, it seems to have involved his fixers trying to get the Russian government’s attention, to no practical end.

And it’s also the sense left by Cohen’s testimony that he witnessed Trump taking a call from Roger Stone in the summer of 2016, in which Stone claimed to have just heard from Julian Assange about “a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary Clinton’s campaign.”

This happened at a time when WikiLeaks had already been hinting at an email dump, so Stone was not exactly delivering privileged information. Trump, according to Cohen, responded “to the effect of stating ‘wouldn’t that be great.’ ” This doesn’t seem like how a years-long collaboration with Russian intelligence would unfold.

Meanwhile on every other Russia-related front, Cohen — with every reason to knife his former boss — offered dossier-discrediting denials. He never went to Prague to meet with Russian intelligence, as the dossier alleged, never heard anything about kompromat, and never had any direct evidence of Trumpian collusion with the Russians.

Is it possible that a real conspiracy was run without the knowledge of the president’s trusted and then-proudly shady fixer? In theory, yes; it could have all happened through figures like Paul Manafort, who we know shared campaign polling data, at least, with a Russian-intelligence-linked figure. But if the dossier’s claim of a years-long Trump-Kremlin entanglement and its claim of Cohen’s direct involvement are both looking implausible or false, then its claims about a sustained Manafort-managed collaboration should be treated extremely skeptically as well.

In which case the most likely l’affaire Russe endgame may be a special prosecutor’s report that doesn’t make Trump look good or decent or moral, but which implicitly exonerates him of conspiring with the Russians, and makes a lot of Mueller watchers extremely unhappy in the process.


As with all conspiracy theories, Russiagate ultimately seeks to provide an overarching narrative to explain a world that is, at all times, basically a chaotic mess – something for which Trump's election victory is, as it happens, a perfect case in point.

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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:56 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Except, perhaps for the 34 people indicted, including at least half a dozen of Trump's closest allies.

Most of the indictments have come about as a result of the investigation itself. Professor Alan Dershowitz sums it up best.

Quote:
"This is typical of Mueller. He has found almost no crimes that occurred before he was appointed special counsel," Dershowitz explained, adding that Mueller was appointed to find Russian collusion and has "virtually failed in that respect in every regard."

"Almost all of his crimes that he's indicted people for are crimes that resulted from his investigation — false statements, tampering with witnesses, obstruction of justice," Dershowitz pointed out. "These are crimes that are generated by the investigation," which, he noted, "doesn't make them any less criminal."

"But it really means that there's been a failure to uncover the basic crimes for which he was appointed. Namely, before he was appointed, was there illegal collusion, illegal conspiracy with Russia?" Dersh asked.

"We don't find that," the professor declared. "In this indictment, he tells stories about alleged collusion, stories about WikiLeaks, but that's not the basis for the indictment. The basis for the indictment are all events that occurred after he was appointed. That's very significant."


https://pjmedia.com/video/alan-dershowitz-slams-typical-mueller-indictment-says-crimes-generated-by-the-investigation/

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Pies4shaw Leo

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:23 pm
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That, I guess includes the 15 charged Russian citizens?

Of course the charges mostly arise from the investigation. They almost always do. Generally in such situations, it’s perjury, not the substantive alleged offences, that does for people.
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swoop42 Virgo

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:44 pm
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Hard to find the truth when your confronted by a bunch of liars which is precisely what the Mueller investigation has already exposed.
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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:44 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
That, I guess includes the 15 charged Russian citizens.

No, I'm speaking of American nationals such as Stone and Corsi amongst others.

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Pies4shaw Leo

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:12 pm
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Jezza wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
That, I guess includes the 15 charged Russian citizens.

No, I'm speaking of American nationals such as Stone and Corsi amongst others.

Oh, so (so far) these crimes:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/21/17692626/manafort-guilty-charges-verdict

At what point does it matter, do you think? Is it when Trump's Campaign Chairman is indicted for (amongst many other things) conspiracy to defraud his country and conspiracy to launder money? Or does something "more significant" have to happen and, if so, wtf would that actually look like?
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Pies4shaw Leo

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:13 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
Hard to find the truth when your confronted by a bunch of liars which is precisely what the Mueller investigation has already exposed.

Just a little correction, swoop42 - they're not "liars", they're "perjurers", the difference between the two being a lengthy jail-term.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:14 pm
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And what the Mueller investigation has exposed is [quoteswoop42]Hard to find the truth when your confronted by a bunch of liars which.
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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:37 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Oh, so (so far) these crimes:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/21/17692626/manafort-guilty-charges-verdict

At what point does it matter, do you think? Is it when Trump's Campaign Chairman is indicted for (amongst many other things) conspiracy to defraud his country and conspiracy to launder money? Or does something "more significant" have to happen and, if so, wtf would that actually look like?

I said "most", not "all". Manafort's charges are far more serious than most of the other indictments.

Trump's opponents were hoping that the Manafort indictment would say that the Russians paid Manafort in order to set up the supposed collusion between Trump and Russia, but the indictment didn't say anything to that nature.

Most of the criminal activities involving Manafort stopped before 2014. Nothing in the Manafort indictment suggested collusion between Trump and Russia which was the original basis for Mueller's investigation. Trump and his campaign team were never mentioned in the indictment.

If anything, Trump is guilty of poor judgment by hiring Manafort in the first place to act as his campaign chairman. The FBI had been investigating Manafort since 2014 (which predates Trump's announcement to run for President), so he was already on the radar of federal agencies.

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Last edited by Jezza on Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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3.14159 Taurus



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:38 pm
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Jezza wrote:

Quote:
"This is typical of Mueller.He has found almost no crimes that occurred before he was appointed special counse," Dershowitz explained, adding that Mueller was appointed to find Russian collusionl and has "virtually failed in that respect in every regard."


That's incorrect. Mueller was appointed to investigate alleged Russian meddling in 2016 election. Trump has managed to shift the public focus onto provable links and interactions actions between him and Putin. Mueller mandate is much wider and he will not be misdirected so easily!

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/robert-mueller-to-oversee-russia-election-probe-as-special-counsel
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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:42 pm
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^ I doubt Mueller's been misdirected during his investigation.

Mueller's investigation has nearly concluded anyway and a final report will be released to the Attorney General soon. Whether it's disclosed publicly is a matter of speculation.

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