Post inauguration Trump:

[David]

[Mugwump]

^ it wasn’t really meant to be an analogy, just an example of egregious bad behaviour with global consequences. By a country which is not the DR of Congo, but our biggest single trading partner.

And if it is merely an outsize interest in “us”, why does it look only for sins, and do so little to celebrate the fact that these are the freest, richest and most kindly societies ever developed in human history ? No, I think it must have deeper psychological roots, and have something to do with the fact that the US, unlike China (or most of the Islamic world), accepts one’s right to criticise it.

[Pies4shaw]

I think the second half of your last sentence (at least insofar as it refers to China) is the entire explanation - there is little point wasting breath on a country no-one can influence. China's regime is quite possibly (though there are plenty of other candidates) the principal enemy of that which we think of as a desirable form of human society on the entire planet - but we know they will behave poorly and with reckless disregard to anything much that we believe in or value. We expect better from the US, because it has typically positioned itself as spokesperson for the sorts of things we tend to be interested in (thus, the President has, over the years, whoever he is, tended to be referred to as the "Leader of the Free World", which kind of tends to raise expectations) - whether we should hold the US to that standard is another question. I don't think, though, that anyone "lets China off lightly" because it is (ostensibly, at least) a State-directed robber-baron economy, rather than a slightly freer market economy. I think we just all expect that China will behave badly and exclusively in the interests of the regime in power there.

[Mugwump]

^ yes, that’s certainly one plausible explanation, P4S, but I suspect it’s a bit too rational.

I sense that the Chinese government does respond to pressure when it does not think that its largest interests are threatened, and it wants international respectability, which we have been too quick to accord it despite its very poor record in so many areas.

This respectability is driven by capitalist opportunism in accessing a growing market, but it’s abetted by the reticence of our civil rights warriors who see the US as a greater object of active contempt. I see this instinct in my own early adult children, who are apt to discuss every article of US malfeasance intently and glaze over at the state of China.

I think the reasons for this are less wholly rational than those you suggest.

[swoop42]

Is Trump to arrogant (or worried) to admit that Russia played a role in aiding his Presidential campaign or is he more concerned about building his business empire via Russian opportunities when he leaves office.

At worst he comes across as a Russian agent, at best as someone who is being coerced by the Russian government.

The alarm bells have begun.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/treasonous-trump-putin-summit-leaves-us-leaders-aghast-20180717-p4zrul.html

[stui magpie]

^

I've maintained the belief that he's not a complete idiot and that the things he does aren't just random but there's some plan behind them, or at least the intent of a plan in his mind.

I'm struggling with this one.

The best I can do so far is that the people saying he should have come down hard on Putin in public are idiots, there's no value to be gained in that.

Acknowledging fault on both sides in the deteriorating relationship would seem a smart negotiating tactic, but one that's highly unpalatable to the US who like to believe they are always in the right.

What his end game is (if he has one), whether they have some form of leverage on him or not, I have NFI.

[David]

[swoop42]

We have a President of the United States deciding to side with a Russian President over and above the advice of his own national security services (who have now laid charges) regarding Russian meddling in the US Presidential election.

This isn't fake news David, this is real and while I don't pretend to be anything but a casual observer or possess academia level knowledge on US Russia relations I can only imagine your youth has lead you to not fully grasping the history of these two countries during the cold war and Reagan era of Republican rule.

Even if we acknowledge a lot of hysteria was at play during this period the sentiment of distrust towards Russia remains today and why shouldn't it?

We have a Russian President who has reportedly accumulated billions of dollars in personal wealth during his time in office and resides over a country that doesn't hold free and fair elections. It is often referred to as a Mafia state.

We have a Russian military that have invaded and occupied parts of Ukraine and Russian rebels that shot down a commercial airliner killing hundreds.

We have seen Russian military involvement in Syria aiding Bashar al-Assad who hasn't been afraid to use chemical weapons and turn whole cities to rubble in his quest to stay in power. The US has provided some level of support to the opponents of Bashar al-Assad.

It's been reported that a number of vocal Putin critics have died in a suspicious or violent manner during his years in power. Russian operatives were prepared to use a deadly nerve agent on British soil leading to the expulsion of Russian diplomats from many countries in protest.

And the list goes on and on.

Why Trump would want to align himself in anyway with Putin is truly mind blowing and how his band of supporters react is going to be very interesting.

Are they the true patriots they like to paint themselves as being or is the cult of Trump more alluring.

[Jezza]

[Jezza]

[David]

[stui magpie]

I'm trying to reconcile this in my head, but I can't.

Trump's stated position in America first. He wants to increase local manufacturing and has put in place tariffs to support this.

He has a back and forth relationship with China, who seem to be the biggest threat to the US both economically and in political influence, is quite dismissive and potentially disparaging toward the EU, encouraging the OK to get out of it, and now he's seemingly cozying up to Russia.

What are the benefits to the US of some form of alliance with Russia?

Russia could get the sanctions dropped and no doubt an alliance with the US would help them (China would I assume be pissed as would all US Arms manufacturers) but what does the US get out of it?

Trump has an angle here, but I can't see it.

[Mugwump]

It’s Trump, so everything is happening on instinct. What I think we can deduce about his instincts is as follows:

1. The has no source of values other than transactional economics. So
China and Europe are adversaries because they sell more to
America than they buy. They are also adversaries because they are big enough to wield genuine economic power. Russia has a
GDP about the size of Italy, and NK about the size of Ethiopia, so he feels free to schmooze them because he does not sense genuine rivalry.

2. Trump is pretty clearly a psychopathic narcissist, so he will do almost anything to gain attention. By doing the unexpected at nearly every turn, he gains that attention, while telling himself that he is more intelligent than others who do the conventional thing. Hence he insults the US’s allies and cozies up to its historic enemies.

3. He clearly admires strongmen, as you would expect from a man who has been brought up to be the proprietor of his own company. Owner-managed companies, if they are large, are the ultimate strongman system : unlike in a public company, one man’s word is law. So I suspect he sympathizes with, and secretly admires, KJU and Putin.

On a slightly different tack, I think Putin is a sinister tyrant, but there is a big difference between Putin and Russia. Russia is a great quasi-European power which has been humiliated terribly many times in the last century, and we would do well to stop rubbing its nose in it. The Ukraine is a classic case in point. The Ukraine was part of Russia for centuries, and it is a massive strategic asset, both for its food production and as a gateway to Europe and the Caucasus. Oceans of Russian blood were spilt there defending it against Germany across 1941-43.

It was an act of tremendous weakness for Russia to permit secession of the Ukraine in 1991, but it did so, presumably, expecting that ties of culture and language would keep it close. Instead, the EU (a profoundly German-dominated political structure) and NATO actively supported a campaign to prise it out of russia’s sphere and into its own. Putin’s reaction to the overthrow of Yanukovich was both reasonable and justified : after all the agony of 1942, Germany ends up dominating the Ukraine after all !

We will never make intelligent decisions in foreign policy until we manage to see reality through the eyes of other people. We should be wary of Putin, but we should seek to reconstruct and support Russia. That requires a series of delicate trade-offs, but not poking Russia in the eye is one of the easiest of those trade-offs.

[swoop42]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-17/putins-number-one-enemy-slams-trump-meeting/10000652

I agree with this commentators view and believe people need to stop seeing Putin as a President of a country and start realising he's the criminal head of a corrupt organisation who has allegedly benefited to the tune of billions and makes Trump and his shady history look like a boy scout in comparison.

Sadly though I believe both men are cut from the same cloth.

One has the ego the size of a tower. The other has his name adorned to it.

One likes to bully and belittle his opponents via a tweet declaring fake news. The other simply executes some trying to tell the truth.

One has declared war on immigrants emboldening his supporter base. The other allows persecution of the LGBTI community.

Good old fashioned greed and power is the angle here and when capitalism goes bad it's never enough for men like this.

[swoop42]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/14/identity-politics-right-left-trump-racism

This article does as good a job as any in unraveling the reasons behind the rise of Trump.