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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | David wrote: | | I think that's conflating two things – not many anti-racism activists (even the balaclava-wearing ones) are Stalinists! Indeed, anarchists in groups like Antifa oppose state control altogether. It might not be the most practical ideology, but you can't exactly pin the gulags on them. |
In any event, how many people are actually in anti-racist groups that support violent confrontation? This is a classic example of pretending that a few crazies on one side of politics somehow invalidate the view and protest of all the sane, sensible people who appreciate that racist hatred is unacceptable. |
Sane, sensible people indeed loathe racist hatred, but we were discussing the people who turn up at far-right rallies to counter-protest. It is a fair bet that the majority of these are deliberately invoking violence. Nobody is "pretending" what you suggest.
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Destruction of memorials. Classy. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Better than punching people, I say!
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| David wrote: | | Better than punching people, I say! |
True, but I think there's an old saying:
"Where they burn books, at the end they also burn people." |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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No one is talking about burning books. The dispute purports to be about the removal of a monument to someone best-known for violently rebelling against a legitimate, fairly elected government in order to defend racism and slavery. Hardly someone most sane people would want to have a monument of.
On the other hand, we have monuments to all sorts of people, many of them total dropkicks of little human worth. You can make a good argument for either case.
In reality, of course, the demonstration had little to do with any monument, it was all about creating fear amongst black people, and amongst white people who treat them decently. Many of the demonstrators are KKK members, for the love of Mike.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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I wasn't referring to the monument of Robert E. Lee.
I was referring to the monument of a confederate soldier that was destroyed by a mob today.
I don't like mobs. They are dangerous and vicious.
Whether they're beating you to death in the name of white supremacy or tolerance really doesn't matter.
To quote the Amazing Gaytheist:
*Looks at the left*
*Looks at the right*
*Prays for a giant meteorite* |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Meanwhile in Seattle
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| That looks like Marshawn Lynch in Beast Mode - I beat if you had a photo from the back, he'd be wearing 24. Who else would they have a statue of in Seattle? |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | I wasn't referring to the monument of Robert E. Lee.
I was referring to the monument of a confederate soldier that was destroyed by a mob today.
I don't like mobs. They are dangerous and vicious.
Whether they're beating you to death in the name of white supremacy or tolerance really doesn't matter.
To quote the Amazing Gaytheist:
*Looks at the left*
*Looks at the right*
*Prays for a giant meteorite* |
That assumes they were a "mob", rather than, say, a bunch of citizens collected together for the purpose of removing monuments to racists. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | I wasn't referring to the monument of Robert E. Lee.
I was referring to the monument of a confederate soldier that was destroyed by a mob today.
I don't like mobs. They are dangerous and vicious.
Whether they're beating you to death in the name of white supremacy or tolerance really doesn't matter.
To quote the Amazing Gaytheist:
*Looks at the left*
*Looks at the right*
*Prays for a giant meteorite* |
That assumes they were a "mob", rather than, say, a bunch of citizens collected together for the purpose of removing monuments to racists. |
Of course, and the KKK are a bunch of citizens collected together for the purpose of preserving historical monuments.
Oh, and persons breaking into your house aren't a gang of thugs but a bunch of citizens collected together for the purpose of redistributing property.
Last edited by thesoretoothsayer on Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Tannin wrote: | No one is talking about burning books. The dispute purports to be about the removal of a monument to someone best-known for violently rebelling against a legitimate, fairly elected government in order to defend racism and slavery. Hardly someone most sane people would want to have a monument of.
On the other hand, we have monuments to all sorts of people, many of them total dropkicks of little human worth. You can make a good argument for either case.
In reality, of course, the demonstration had little to do with any monument, it was all about creating fear amongst black people, and amongst white people who treat them decently. Many of the demonstrators are KKK members, for the love of Mike. |
Quite so. Monuments are really nothing at all like books, for some pretty obvious reasons (beyond the public spectacle of a literal book-burning and desecration of a public statue). Did anyone really have a moment when watching Saddam's statue come down of wondering whether it was a violation of free speech? Whereas I hope most of us would consider censorship of his writing to be a matter requiring at least serious debate, if not outright opposition on free speech grounds.
That's not to say I necessarily support desecration of statues or think it's always ok. It's tricky in this case in particular given America's (and particularly the American South's) complicated relationship with racism and Civil War history. But at the end of the day, destruction of inanimate objects is something far closer to peaceful protest than street brawling.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Quote: | | But at the end of the day, destruction of inanimate objects is something far closer to peaceful protest than street brawling. |
Closer to, but not by a lot. Destruction of property is called vandalism and is no part of a peaceful protest IMHO.
I've posted before about these retaliatory or counter protests.
If the far right white supremacists were left to hold their march, without the counter protests, how much publicity would they have really got?
By counter protesting and inciting violent confrontation they give more airplay to the very cause they denounce. Frigging peanuts.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Perhaps, but by not organising a counter-protest, they would send a message that their community does not push back against such views, and minorities are shown that no-one is willing to stand up for them. I think I lean more towards your view when the protest is tiny and insignificant, as often seems to be the case here in Melbourne, but this protest seems to have been much larger and better-organised. At the end of the day, a counter-protest is as valid a form of free speech as any other protest is.
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