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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:06 am
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^But the point of the discussion is the reason for the loss of the house in this case. No doubt the gap between the hype and reality sets in in most presidencies, as your data shows; however, the rationale for the disappointment would differ with each presidency.

In Trump's case, the dissonance caused by his claim that he would drain the swamp, and the reality of him actually being a swamp creature, surrounded by slime, is too much for moderates to bear.

From what I can tell, a strategy of drawing attention to Trump's grubby dealings and associations is an effective way of underscoring his untrustworthiness. This is certainly not a fellow who is going to stand up for you in the corridors of power.

Hence, my disagreement with David.

That said, I do not think a corrupt briber of the super rich who riles the angry and disaffected with daily doses of demagoguery, and is subject to no behavioural expectations, will be easy to get rid of. On the contrary; as a shabby con artist, Trump has taken the lowest and easiest road imaginable.

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:40 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
^ And the way this works is that there will still be half a dozen people on here who will read that and conclude that there is a mainstream media conspiracy to hide the plot to burn down the cathedral.


Even conspiracy minded people can't hold a candle to the idiots who spent 2 years believing that Trump was working with Russia to steal the election from Hillary.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:06 am
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/muellers-report-paints-a-damning-portrait-of-trumps-presidency/2019/04/18/d7f52726-61f7-11e9-bfad-36a7eb36cb60_story.html?utm_term=.e5d6130c4546

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/apr/18/mueller-report-release-donald-trump-latest-news-live-updates-analysis-key-points

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/18/trump-mueller-report-obstruction-end-presidency-anyone-else

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/18/trump-mueller-report-obstruction-end-presidency-anyone-else

"Robert Mueller described 11 instances in which Donald Trump or his campaign engaged in potential obstruction of justice and suggested Congress might prosecute these acts as crimes, according to explosive findings in the redacted version of the special counsel’s report released on Thursday.

Over almost 450 pages, portions of which remained hidden from public view, Mueller described in unprecedented detail Russian efforts to tamper with the 2016 US presidential election and the Trump campaign’s receptivity to certain “Russian offers of assistance to the campaign”.


The full text of Robert Mueller's report on Trump and Russia
Read more
Trump sought to claim the findings as a victory and vindication, repeating his characterization of the investigation as a “hoax” and adding that “it should never happen to a president again”. He added on Twitter: “GAME OVER” with a Photoshopped image himself on a Game of Thrones background.

But Democratic leaders rejected Trump’s claim of exoneration. The House judiciary committee chairman, Jerrold Nadler, said the Mueller report was “probably written with the intent of providing Congress with a road map” and that impeachment hearings were “one possibility”.

“The responsibility now falls to Congress to hold the president accountable for his actions,” Nadler said.

The redacted Mueller report released by the Department of Justice (DoJ) contains ample material Trump might not wish to highlight. Mueller said his investigation had discovered “multiple links between Trump campaign officials and individuals tied to the Russian government” and said “the campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts”.

Passages of the report describe behind-the-scenes moments as the president fended off the advance of investigators, including a description of Trump’s reaction to the appointment of Mueller in 2017: “The President slumped back in his chair and said, ‘Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I’m $%$ed.’”"


Here's a link to the "full" (ie, hilariously redacted) report: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/18/mueller-report-read-in-full-trump-russia-document-what-does-it-say
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:38 am
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Wokko wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
^ And the way this works is that there will still be half a dozen people on here who will read that and conclude that there is a mainstream media conspiracy to hide the plot to burn down the cathedral.


Even conspiracy minded people can't hold a candle to the idiots who spent 2 years believing that Trump was working with Russia to steal the election from Hillary.


Except, of course, that Mueller's report concluded that he was. You can read it, now (except for the blacked out bits).
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:30 pm
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https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/04/18/james-clapper-mueller-report-devastating-road-map-for-impeachment/
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:48 pm
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Some more on this:

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/robert-mueller-did-not-merely-reject-the-trumprussia-conspiracy-theories-he-obliterated-them/

Quote:
Robert Mueller Did Not Merely Reject the Trump-Russia Conspiracy Theories. He Obliterated Them.
Glenn Greenwald


[...]

In sum, Democrats and their supporters had the exact prosecutor they all agreed was the embodiment of competence and integrity in Robert Mueller. He assembled a team of prosecutors and investigators that countless media accounts heralded as the most aggressive and adept in the nation. They had subpoena power, the vast surveillance apparatus of the U.S. government at their disposal, a demonstrated willingness to imprison anyone who lied to them, and unlimited time and resources to dig up everything they could.

The result of all of that was that not a single American – whether with the Trump campaign or otherwise – was charged or indicted on the core question of whether there was any conspiracy or coordination with Russia over the election. No Americans were charged or even accused of being controlled by or working at the behest of the Russian government. None of the key White House aides at the center of the controversy who testified for hours and hours – including Donald Trump, Jr. or Jared Kushner – were charged with any crimes of any kind, not even perjury, obstruction of justice or lying to Congress.

These facts are fatal to the conspiracy theorists who have drowned U.S. discourse for almost three years with a dangerous and distracting fixation on a fictitious espionage thriller involved unhinged claims of sexual and financial blackmail, nefarious infiltration of the U.S. Government by familiar foreign villains, and election cheating that empowered an illegitimate President. They got the exact prosecutor and investigation that they wanted, yet he could not establish that any of this happened and, in many cases, established that it did not.

[...]

The nature of our political discourse is that nobody ever needs to admit error because it is easy to confine oneself to strictly partisan precincts where people are far more interested in hearing what advances their agenda or affirms their beliefs than they are hearing the truth. For that reason, I doubt that anyone who spent the last three years pushing utterly concocted conspiracy theories will own up to it, let alone confront any accountability or consequences for it.

But certain facts will never go away no matter how much denial they embrace. The sweeping Mueller investigation ended with zero indictments of zero Americans for conspiring with Russia over the 2016 election. Both Donald Trump, Jr. and Jared Kushner – the key participants in the Trump Tower meeting – testified for hours and hours yet were never charged for perjury, lying or obstruction, even though Mueller proved how easily he would indict anyone who lied as part of the investigation. And this massive investigation simply did not establish any of the conspiracy theories that huge parts of the Democratic Party, the intelligence community and the U.S. media spent years encouraging the public to believe.

Those responsible for this can refuse to acknowledge wrongdoing. They can even claim vindication if they want and will likely be cheered for doing so.

But the contempt in which the media and political class is held by so much of the U.S. population – undoubtedly a leading factor that led to Trump’s election in the first place – will only continue to grow as a result, and deservedly so. People know they were scammed, that their politics was drowned for years by a hoax. And none of that will go away no matter how insulated media and political elites in Washington, northern Virginia, Brooklyn, and large West Coast cities keep themselves, and thus hear only in-group affirmation while blocking out all of that well-earned scorn.

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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:59 pm
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^ Good article by Greenwald.

Am I seeing things, or did P4S provide a link to a Breitbart article? Shocked

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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:04 pm
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Tucker interviewing Greenwald.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJszevux0jU

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:12 pm
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Jezza wrote:
^ Good article by Greenwald.

Am I seeing things, or did P4S provide a link to a Breitbart article? Shocked

It's OK, Jezza, I certainly didn't read it. Wink

It just came up when I googled "Trump Muller impeachment Breitbart". Laughing
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:18 pm
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Jezza wrote:
^ Good article by Greenwald.

Am I seeing things, or did P4S provide a link to a Breitbart article? Shocked


It's an article to get their readership fired up about an anti-Trumper speaking BS on CNN, P4S swallowed it whole Laughing
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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:26 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Except, of course, that Mueller's report concluded that he was. You can read it, now (except for the blacked out bits).


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Yeah, sure mate. Lay off The Guardian/CNN/MSNBC.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:29 pm
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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/mueller-report-impeachment-referral/587509/
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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:33 pm
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Impeach away, the Senate will acquit and the public will punish the Dems like they punished the Republicans after impeaching Clinton.

Trump derangement syndrome is a hell of thing.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:42 pm
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He plainly colluded with Russia. People who can read and write do not seriously dispute that. Mueller's conclusion is that there is insufficient evidence that said collusion, in this particular instance, amounted to a criminal conspiracy. So, it was wrongful conduct, it tended to undermine the democratic process but it may not have been criminal.

Treating that as a victory sets a reasonably low bar for the re-election of pond-life.
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:58 pm
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Or: "Hostile Russian Election Interference Welcomed by Hopeful Trump Famiglia Who Also Obstructed Justice if You Can be Bothered Pursuing the High Pharaoh of America".

So, we've got Russian interference welcomed with open arms, an open door to impeachment for obstruction of justice, a refusal to cooperate with an investigation, a circle of acquaintances littered with convicted criminals and lowlifes, unqualified relatives placed in high office, a refusal to disclose tax returns, and a refusal to divest conflicts of interest.

But the most notable news of the week was surely Trump's undying devotion to the Saudi-led war on Yemen. So, after pretending to be different, Trump is finally taking up George W's international relations policies, having already taken up his economic policy of providing handouts to the wealthy and blowing out the deficit, causing the social programs his supporters rely on to be cut.

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