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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| Wokko wrote: | 
That quote sums up a huge chunk of my animosity towards the left and progressives in general. They don't just want to give up their own freedoms for safety but want to take mine too. **** the arrogant, self righteous morally superior wankers. Yes, I like to 'trigger liberals' because they want power over me and they want to use the violence of government to take it.
I usually keep my views to satire and gentle mockery, but you asked.  |
I get that view, but I just don't get how you believe Trump provides any real difference.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| pietillidie wrote: | | David wrote: | There’s definitely something psychologically interesting in the fact that, while a lot of leftists are genuinely concerned with Trump’s stance on issues like climate change, asylum seekers, minority rights and international relations, a key motivation of a lot* of Trump’s supporters really does just seem to be "owning the libs".
We see a lot of mirroring in politics, where similar motivations and tactical thinking seem to undergird rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum, but I’m not really sure this specific phenomenon has a clear parallel on the left. Basically, leftists and liberals seem to very rarely vote to troll the other side. Nobody wants Sanders or Corbyn in just to see how mad conservatives get, at least not from what I can tell.
So what’s going on here, exactly? I feel like there are going to be some answers that progressives won’t like – that this is a reaction to self-righteousness, easy offence-taking and certain forms of cultural dominance – but, while there may be a lot of truth in that, we should also be wary of embracing simplistic narratives (usually disingenuously pushed by fake “ex-liberals” like Dave Rubin) that leftists and liberals have a mortgage on any of these qualities or that if they were just a little more tolerant then people wouldn’t be so racist. I feel like there’s something more complex in operation here.
*Of course there are also a lot of Trump supporters who genuinely have strong ideological reasons for following him, and I’m not necessarily saying the Pepes and other apparent nihilists expressing Skids-like sentiments are completely ideology-free. But the prospect of triggering lefties seems to loom large over Trump’s presidency and, indeed, his whole candidacy from the get-go... |
As I say, no one blames fundamentalist Islam on annoying liberal Muslims. However, fundamentalist Islam most certainly does blame liberal Muslims, hating them more than even outsiders. This is a well-known phenomenon among social groups.
At the individual level, and Republicans do like to go on about personal responsibility, people cutting their noses to spite their faces is surely about a lack of self control. If all it takes is someone pissing you off to make you sabotage your own healthcare or de-fund your own education to give tax cuts to millionaires, you're behaving irrationally. In a non-political context, people who continually sabotage their own wellbeing are considered to have disorders.
At the group level, the problem with isolated cultures – and much of Trumpland sits outside the productive urban centres that fund the nation – is that they can, as Foucault demonstrated, normalise all kinds of things. By the time you've listened to some shrieking nutcase go on about migrant caravans, heard Uncle Fred say education is a waste of money, read about the socialist healthcare conspiracy, spent a few hours flicking through animated GIFs, and joined hands in a circle of prayer for your god-appointed president, your self-destructive choices suddenly have a veneer of normality about them.
But by just saying that, apparently I caused a dozen people to vote for some fanatic who wants to send their children to war with China. My bad. |
That's the funny thing about this "liberals made me racist" trope – why is it only liberals and leftists who are considered to have any agency? Do the Dave Rubins of the world ever consider that their conservative worldviews and attacks on progressives might be making their opponents more left-wing, etc.?
Better to avoid the culture wars and base one's politics on sincere engagement with observation, ideas and data, I'd argue, wherever that may lead you. Voting for Trump because it makes a dreadlocked turmeric-sipping vegan mad (or, on the flipside, voting for Clinton just so the MRAs will cry about having a female president) isn't the healthiest way to engage with the world: we have a word for that approach, and it's called spite.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Reads like partisan fence-banging to me, but not at all surprising from that author. On the one hand, he's right – I also suspect that the real smoking gun(s) will be found in Trump's business dealings, because if you don't think he cut corners and broke laws over the years then I have a bridge to sell you (and Trump probably does too!). That is indeed a much more promising line of inquiry, and there could well be enough there to bring down the president. But notice also the deft shift away from Russiagate, which hacks like Wolffe have been banging on about for over two years now, to more substantial matters:
| Quote: | There will be many Democrats disappointed Mueller did not scream “Guilty!” and that impeachment remains on hold. But party leadership, and election veterans, know short-term disappointment offers a long-running advantage.
It means a year of more congressional revelations and a year of more indictments. It means the 2020 election can be forward-looking about Trump’s fitness for office, rather than backward-looking about the last election.
It means more consideration of corruption and less talk of collusion. |
So that's it, then? We're all moving on now? All that sabre-rattling over Russia was for nothing? Because that's certainly how it sounds.
What would it take for these columnists to admit that they got swept up in an overblown conspiracy theory and fixated on it way out of proportion in comparison to pressing political issues with significant real-life consequences such as taxation, climate policy and the war in Yemen – that is to say, what would it take for them to admit that they were wrong?
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Nobody cared about Russia, they just care about 'getting Trump'. It's pathological at this point. No collusion? Mueller must be in Russia's pocket, or Trump's or something. Or there are other crimes, bigger ones, huge ones, even though we just spent 2 years sniffing around Trump and anyone he ever had a casual conversation with. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Seeing Rachel Maddow on the verge of tears because the US President was not colluding with Russia was the highlight of the weekend
MSNBC and CNN are finished. Credibility has been shot into a million pieces.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ If there were any link between credibility and profitability, Fox would have folded 20 years ago. I expect all three channels will keep filling their brain-dead echo chambers into eternity.
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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^ Most of these cable news channels are catered to an old audience. The median age of viewers is in the 60s.
I'm not sure whether these networks will last in the long term especially with the proliferation of social media and alternative media.
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Watching the ABC breakfast News this morning was like watching a leftist talk show! Aren't they supposed to be unbiased reporters? Virginia Trioli & to a lesser extent, Michael Rowlands display was disgraceful.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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All we have at this stage is a summary from the Trump appointed Attorney General and as they say the devil is in the detail and if the Democrats can get access to the actual report it'll be interesting to see what judgements were made in regards to obstruction of justice and whether the Attorney General is correct in not pursuing them.
As for the collusion well it's an established fact that Russia did meddle in the Presidential election and it was of benefit to Trump.
Alongside campaign aides it's been reported that his son and son in law met with agents of the Kremlin in this period and it seems fanciful to suggest family members would flip on him to investigators.
It's also naive to suggest that if one is seeking to collude with a foreign power it would be done in an obvious and open manner that is easily substantiated by law enforcement.
That's not how espionage works people.
And as we know what can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt can be different to innocence.
What we do know is that Trump has surrounded himself with a whole bunch of deceitful characters with his campaign manager Paul Manafort now gaoled, his personal lawyer Michael Cohen sentenced to 3 years gaol while his former national security adviser Michael Flynn has been found guilty of lying to FBI agents during the course of the investigation.
So either Trump is just very unlucky in his hiring process or these people offer a clear reflection of his character.
Then of course we have the man himself whose actions despite protestations of innocence appeared to be that of someone with something to hide.
First we had the firing of FBI director James Comey, a reluctance to seemingly criticise Putin, an occasion where he appeared to side with the Kremlin ahead of his own security agencies advice, the man originally picked to be his Attorney-General and oversee the Russia investigation Jeff Sessions recused himself much to his annoyance while he has consistently looked to undermine Mueller personally and his investigation.
I'm sure that tune will change now. LOL.
While Trump and his supporters will naturally be crowing today with numerous investigations into his business dealings still underway, the actual Mueller report yet to be scrutinised and the Democrats ruling the house much is still to play out.
I'd start with subpoenaing his tax records.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: |
Reads like partisan fence-banging to me, but not at all surprising from that author. On the one hand, he's right – I also suspect that the real smoking gun(s) will be found in Trump's business dealings, because if you don't think he cut corners and broke laws over the years then I have a bridge to sell you (and Trump probably does too!). That is indeed a much more promising line of inquiry, and there could well be enough there to bring down the president. But notice also the deft shift away from Russiagate, which hacks like Wolffe have been banging on about for over two years now, to more substantial matters:
| Quote: | There will be many Democrats disappointed Mueller did not scream “Guilty!” and that impeachment remains on hold. But party leadership, and election veterans, know short-term disappointment offers a long-running advantage.
It means a year of more congressional revelations and a year of more indictments. It means the 2020 election can be forward-looking about Trump’s fitness for office, rather than backward-looking about the last election.
It means more consideration of corruption and less talk of collusion. |
So that's it, then? We're all moving on now? All that sabre-rattling over Russia was for nothing? Because that's certainly how it sounds.
What would it take for these columnists to admit that they got swept up in an overblown conspiracy theory and fixated on it way out of proportion in comparison to pressing political issues with significant real-life consequences such as taxation, climate policy and the war in Yemen – that is to say, what would it take for them to admit that they were wrong? |
I think you're missing the irony that Russia is a Republican petard, and the swamp is Trump's. The Russia aspect is a peculiar American obsession championed by Republicans, so they're deservedly wearing decades of their own discourse on this. There is just no sympathy to be had here even if you think it's a beat up prior to having looked at the actual evidence.
Not that I care for Democrats – I find them cringeworthy – but they would say taking the house was the best way of dealing tax, climate and Saudi Arabia.
But don't miss the limits of prosecution where this report and supreme pharaohs are concerned. It's often extremely difficult to get at the supreme pharaoh for his crimes because he is surrounded by other agents who act on a wink-nod basis. Many of those agents have now been prosecuted, while the corrupt agents of the Bush administration still walk free. This can only be a good thing.
Corrupt is corrupt, whether be illegal payouts to influence elections, or refusing to quarantine financial activities. The Republicans and Trump are getting what they deserve here, even if you don't like the Russia pretext. Also, the laws concerning prosecuting a president simply aren't up to standard, relying as they do on norms to preserve the face of the office.
The partisan view that his report is the beginning of the end, and that the other hearings to come were always going to deliver the hammer blow, might still prove correct. Regardless, the mud is sticking because the subject is a corrupt swine, not because Republicans are being ill treated.
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Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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My concern doesn’t have to do with Trump or Republicans more broadly being unfairly treated, it’s with the Democrats and the centrist media taking up Republican talking points on international affairs and allowing them to a) be distracted from far more pressing issues; b) shape how such issues are discussed more broadly, and, most worryingly c) play chicken with tense international dynamics in order to win domestic political points. You’re completely right that it’s a standard-issue Republican tactic – and just as it stunk then, it stinks now. And we should resist it just as forcefully.
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Last edited by David on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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That's high ground which would be nice to hold in a context of serious law and governance. But Trump has refused to deal with gross conflicts of interest and has brazenly placed unqualified relatives in extremely serious positions of government, among other things, while breaking no known laws of the (banana) republic.
This is an incredible level of brazen criminality with nothing but musty custom opposing it. In the absence of serious checks and balances, all niceties are surely off the table.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Even if world peace is literally at stake? I don’t want to be an alarmist, but I think we all know from experience that the world could do with a great deal less sabre-rattling. Sanctions are an act of escalation, and there’s no question in my mind that the Russiagate red scare has heaped a bit more gunpowder into that particular keg.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | ^ If there were any link between credibility and profitability, Fox would have folded 20 years ago. I expect all three channels will keep filling their brain-dead echo chambers into eternity. |
I suggest it's become worse since the internet became all pervasive and the news cycle became 24/7.
It's no longer just about a demographic and attracting advertisers, it's now about adjusting stories to appeal to the demographic. The end of truly impartial media
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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I heard an American Law Professor say on radio this afternoon that the scope of the Mueller investigation was very narrow in terms of collusion and didn't cover what the lay person would consider an act of collusion.
Can't remember his exact words but effectively it was an investigation looking for any formal agreements between the Trump camp and the Russian operatives who carried out the cyber meddling and the terms of reference for the collusion investigation mirrored the narrative that Trump and his lawyers wanted to sell from the outset.
The article below provides a good reminder of the events that lead up to this moment and the highlighted passage needs answering if Trump has nothing to hide.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/us/politics/trump-russia.html
| Quote: | "a pressing question for Mr. Mueller’s team was why so many of Mr. Trump’s associates felt compelled to conceal the truth".
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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