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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ A timely reminder. This dumpling is one of the great monsters of history. Whilst you have to deal with monsters and diplomacy is always better than war, his being seen in relatively normal company does not make him a legitimate head of state. |
We actually know next to nothing about him specifically. Only that he inherited the leadership from an actual monster at a very young age and has had to consolidate power. It would be pretty much impossible to tear down the apparatus of what is in effect an absolute monarchy overnight. He's probably the first Gen Y world leader, it'll be interesting to see how he deals with bringing NK into the modern world. I'm guessing he will have a lot of enemies back home.
We saw nothing like this kind of engagement from Sung or Jong. |
It will be interesting. Dictators rarely roll over voluntarily so you can probably wipe free elections off the agenda.
What Kim gets here is some recognition of his status, something his father and grandfather never did. If he actually does de-nuclearise, you can expect that to be traded for both sovereignty and security guarantees as well as economic aide and lowering of sanctions.
Potentially, bringing them into the international community can do more for the lives of the people there than continued tension
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Yes, we have to hope and give it a crack. I can't see any advantage in disengagement. Small steps are better than no steps, and far better than Bush neocons going on about axes of evil.
Critically, this is a rare case where a very proactive SK president is not being blocked by US neocons, and is too popular to be blocked at home by SK neocons.
Also, for all anyone knows this might work for China. Having a buffer zone is one thing, but prosperity is always going to be better for everyone, while China's military is powerful enough that it no longer needs a buffer zone.
Whether or not anything comes of it beyond Trump's self glorying, the opportunity has to be pursued as far as possible. I just hope he doesn't doing anything foolish out of spite to worsen things.
As an aside, I have done the full DMZ tour, gone to the JSA in Panmunjom, gone down into the tunnels dug by NK, peered over the DMZ with binoculars, etc. Apart from a creepy Potemkin Village which I could see in the binoculars over the DMZ, the thing which affected me most was going to Dorasan Station, which is a symbol of hope:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorasan_Station
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ I don’t disagree. Even if your interlocutor is a poisonous homicidal toad, talking is always better than war if they’re not actually going to attack you or your vital interests.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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This is absolutely fantastic news, and one instance (and a big one at that) in which Trump's kamikaze presidential approach seems to have been totally vindicated. His willingness to put a hold on military exercises in South Korea will infuriate neo-cons, but it's a huge step forward in the direction of peace and a sign that progress is possible.
(Oh, and the pathetic warmongers at The Guardian hate it, so you know Trump must be doing something right.)
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
When you read a few pieces on the Singapore summit, you can so clearly see the political biases of the writer shining through.
Wildly conflicting assessments of the body language of the two, wildly conflicting opinions on the outcome.
It's gonna be interesting. By holding the meeting, Kim gained a level of "face" he could only have dreamed of, but assuming he likes that ( and I think he likes it a lot) and wants to maintain it, he's going to need to slowly come inside the tent which can only be a good thing for the people of NK.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Any diplomacy and de-escalation of tensions is a win in my books (a win for the entire world, that is). We can't really afford to **** around with nukes.
As for the reportage, I can barely contain my disgust at the anti-Trump 'liberal' press's coverage of this. Their analysis has been woeful, and just shows that they never learned a thing from their slack-jawed support of the Iraq War.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
The same people who were belting him for provoking a nuclear war are now belting him for trying to broker peace.
It doesn't matter what he does, they find a way to twist it against him but what they don't get is that it plays into his hands. When he criticises the media, he's being proven right.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | This is absolutely fantastic news, and one instance (and a big one at that) in which Trump's kamikaze presidential approach seems to have been totally vindicated. His willingness to put a hold on military exercises in South Korea will infuriate neo-cons, but it's a huge step forward in the direction of peace and a sign that progress is possible.
(Oh, and the pathetic warmongers at The Guardian hate it, so you know Trump must be doing something right.) |
Blimey, you’re easily pleased....two psychopaths with a history of lying and reneging get together, exchange some ridiculous pleasantries at a press conference that gives a whole new meaning to “bizarre”, agree to put some exercises on hold and work in an unspecified way towards denuclearization, and you think it’s a “huge step” toward peace ?
Two bad men with a long history of treating words as litter and a mutual love of unaccountable power have met and talked. The NK regime may be more inclined to relax and normalize now that it has its nuclear shield and “respect”, and talking is always better than war-making, if the latter can be avoided ; but the NK regime is still one of the most loathsome tormentors of humans on this planet, so of itself this “summit” means little, until we see real change in behaviour.
NK might start to change, or Kim and Trump might be bitch-slapping each other on Twitter again within a few months. Nothing means anything in Trumpland. Everything means brutality in Kimland. Huge steps toward peace are made of more than a meeting of such minds.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Good article.
This bit summed it up for me
| Quote: | | It’s not hard to see what’s going on here. Democrats and liberal commentators are so deeply invested in their anti-Trumpism that they’ve lost the ability to interpret the world through any other prism. |
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | This is absolutely fantastic news, and one instance (and a big one at that) in which Trump's kamikaze presidential approach seems to have been totally vindicated. His willingness to put a hold on military exercises in South Korea will infuriate neo-cons, but it's a huge step forward in the direction of peace and a sign that progress is possible.
(Oh, and the pathetic warmongers at The Guardian hate it, so you know Trump must be doing something right.) |
Blimey, you’re easily pleased....two psychopaths with a history of lying and reneging get together, exchange some ridiculous pleasantries at a press conference that gives a whole new meaning to “bizarre”, agree to put some exercises on hold and work in an unspecified way towards denuclearization, and you think it’s a “huge step” toward peace ?
Two bad men with a long history of treating words as litter and a mutual love of unaccountable power have met and talked. The NK regime may be more inclined to relax and normalize now that it has its nuclear shield and “respect”, and talking is always better than war-making, if the latter can be avoided ; but the NK regime is still one of the most loathsome tormentors of humans on this planet, so of itself this “summit” means little, until we see real change in behaviour.
NK might start to change, or Kim and Trump might be bitch-slapping each other on Twitter again within a few months. Nothing means anything in Trumpland. Everything means brutality in Kimland. Huge steps toward peace are made of more than a meeting of such minds. |
It may be bizarre, but it’s diplomacy. Already, several previously unimaginable concessions from each side have been put on the table.
Nobody’s disputing that Kim’s North Korea is a vile dystopia. I’m not pretending Trump is a stable individual. But what, exactly, is the alternative? More sanctions (leading to more starvation of rural NK civilians)? More gun-toting, which may lead at a moment of carelessness to the destruction of the human race? You don’t get very far in this world with moral absolutes (and anyway, all superpowers including the US would fail to live ip to them); you only maintain a peaceful international order through negotiation and compromise. That the biggest step towards that in six decades is nothing to sneeze at. Yes, I’m impressed.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you know the smallest step towards that in six decades is nothing to sneeze at? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ The alternative is to continue to work with China to stop trading with its vile child statelet. America has many points of leverage in that regard, and that strategy does not involve normalizing a criminal regime.
Anyway, my main point was that I think you are being premature in celebrating this wacky little tete-a-tete as a “huge step forward”. Seeing Kim as a respected member of the international community worthy of meeting the POTUS is a normalization of a torturer’s right to rule.
I don’t object to them meeting per se in preference to twitter-baiting, but the gushing acceptance of the little toad by DT has more to do with his desire to embrace strongmen (while abusing his democratic peers like Trudeau) than it has to do with progress. But then, I have never felt that there was a danger of war anyway. Both Trump and Kim have too much to lose.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
OK, but lets look at that.
Lil Kim is a despot, murderer, general filth who craves recognition.
Trump gave it to him.
The alternative was to continue the course of action that hasn't worked for 70 years with sanctions and pressure, or to just ignore them. Option Z would be to just take Kim out with a special forces strike and try to manipulate some handover to democracy. We've seen how well that has worked in the past.
So Trump gave him what he craved, legitimacy, and therefore opened the door to real negotiation. The legitimacy he gave is easy to take away, and in itself costs nothing but pride and Trump is a negotiator he knows how to play that.
IMHO you can't have it both ways. You can't try to negotiate with Lil Kim if you're simultaneously slapping him round the head for being an arsehole. You need to appeal to his vanity and ego and get him engaged first, then bring in the detail later
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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But I agree, the amount of hypocrisy and backflipping has been staggering.
