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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:07 pm
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Bad move by Trump hiring a guy who epitomises the neo-conservative mindset.

Contrary to what Trump platformed on during his campaign, the neo-cons still seem to be firmly in charge of the foreign policy defence establishment.

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HAL 

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:11 pm
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What makes move by Trump hiring a guy who epitomises the neo-con establishment bad?
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Pies4shaw Leo

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Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:55 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Bolton makes McMaster look like a gender studies majoring arts student. I can see a big war incoming.

His pacemaker will probably give out before his peacemaker does.
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swoop42 Virgo

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Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:58 pm
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The Republicans are in office so it must be time to find a new enemy to fight a war against somewhere in the world.

Vietnam, Iraq, North Korea?

Call me a cynic.

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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:23 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
The Republicans are in office so it must be time to find a new enemy to fight a war against somewhere in the world.

Vietnam, Iraq, North Korea?

Call me a cynic.

Be cynical of the neocon establishment which is filled with both Democrats and Republicans.

Obama was a war hawk as well, but not as blatant as Bush.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy

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Wokko Pisces

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:25 pm
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The only US President not to wage war was Jimmy Carter, it's hardly a republican thing.
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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:48 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
^ the primary vote question is what it is. It does not make Trump illegitimate, and the electoral college system is there for very good reason. It is just noteworthy that a candidate as shabby as Clinton pulled in 3 million more votes on aggregate.

I long ago gave up trying to find a credible independent source on Clinton and the allegations of corruption. The mainstream reliable papers that I read, the Financial Times and the Economist, did not paint her as especially corrupt by US political standards. If you have read anything reliable which clarifies the matter, I’d be interested to read it. I have no great wish to defend her. I hold Burkean conservative views, and her politics (like that of the Republicans) is emphatically not mine. But truth is always interesting.

I decline to see mere transparency as a virtue, unless it is backed by coherence, probity, dignity and quality of thought. I see none of these in Trump. His sole virtue in my eyes is that he is doing democracy’s work by bringing the voice of the ignored and despised into politics again.


There is a big divide between the middle America and the coast. As in Australia, the heaviest populous is on he seaboard. The popular vote will now more than ever go to the Dems with the left ideology and sanctuary city declarations. However for Trump, to get more republican votes than ever before says a lot as well.

Ive not read any one article or source on Clinton however there is a heap of information out there on top of what she herself has said and done in the past. Bernie campaign raised a few eyebrows as did the first Obama primary run.

Agree, Transparency isnt in itself a deciding factor however I think people are very quick to dismiss Trump with motherhood statements on character without backing it up. Is he flawed ? Absolutely but he is also very smart and not nearly as ignorant as he makes himself out to be. Im not sold on him but far from dismissive of him either given he has done some significant things so far.

Its simplistic to say he simply tells people what they want to hear. The issues are real to the Americans the voted for him and he has been talking about these things for years before he ran for pres.

One thing though, much more interesting the Australian politics !!
Laughing

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:47 pm
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^

Good points. I look on in humour at how so many people dismiss Trump as an evil idiot when he clearly isn't, because it suits their beliefs.

I don't think he's a high quality human being (mind you neither are the Clintons) but I think the narrative that he only won because Idiot America voted for him is left elitist bullshit. He's smart and targeted his message and so far seems to be delivering on it, for better or worse. God forbid we had politicians in Australia who actually did what they promised during elections.

While I'm not a member of his cheersquad, I do enjoy watching the show.
Wink

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:52 pm
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^Yes, that sort of language elucidates nothing.

As a leader, Trump is strong tactically, and weak strategically. He is good at taking down near-comers in battle through surprise, wrong-footing, convention busting, and improvisation. These are greatly underrated talents probably because people don't want to be reminded of just how shabby and undignified business, politics and life itself can be.

Of course, Trump is unlikely take anyone but family and passing opportunists or groupies with him because his wins rest on his idiosyncratic talents and personal motivation at any one time. This is reflected in his disjointed and disparate business interests, lack of organisational identity beyond his own name, and strengths in short-term "deal" industries such as real estate and TV.

Bolton would be the nearest bloke hanging around who gels with his current needs and talk, not an important role player in a plan of any kind.

As a consequence of his strengths, Trump can dominate short media cycles, and is no doubt good at "negotiating" in situations where he can domineer modest rivals in short-term association, and weather their retaliation. This happens to be a crucial skill in controlling the most important arm of contemporary governance, the media, in its various forms. And we are not talking about some ability peripheral to politics here; controlling narrative is the holy grail of politics, like it or not.

At the same time, the existence of an executive in the US system helps, too, because, unlike the more institutional branches of government, it can accommodate individual eccentricity and isolation, at least for a time.

So, as long as he can continually decentre efforts to question the long game, and as long as strategic considerations don't turn on him, Trump can keep "winning", albeit in a Charlie Sheen kind of way.

This ability to win battles makes Trump a great foil for Republicans, because they can use him to slash and burn a way to their long-term policy objectives while maintaining an organisational stability that Trump could never build. At the same time, the Republicans are a great foil for Trump, as they can prop him up beyond his short attention span.

How long Republicans can keep propping Trump up structurally, and how long Trump can help them over the line in key constituencies, remains to be seen. Meanwhile, larger strategic forces of little interest to him, a list of enemies a mile long, and the waning protection of the executive, could come home to roost at any moment.

While shenanigans and improvisation are permanent features of politics, Trump's strengths and weaknesses, which are highly idiosyncratic, are clearly shaping the US political game in new ways.

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Jezza Taurus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
I don't think he's a high quality human being (mind you neither are the Clintons) but I think the narrative that he only won because Idiot America voted for him is left elitist bullshit. He's smart and targeted his message and so far seems to be delivering on it, for better or worse. God forbid we had politicians in Australia who actually did what they promised during elections.
Wink

Agree, Stui.

Last week on her tour in India, Hillary Clinton's remarks about the different demographics that voted for her or Trump demonstrate this ongoing elitism permeating through many strands of the left. She essentially said all those voting Trump are 'backwards', which is condescending bullshit.

Has she ever pondered the idea that she was a crap candidate, and that's why she lost the election? I doubt it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-middle-america-looking-backwards-lost-election-donald-trump/

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swoop42 Virgo

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:29 am
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Trump won because of the support gained from those who associate the new found equality of minorities with white repression and after hundreds of years of privilege I guess they sadly can't tell the difference.

Hillary might have been a crap candidate but she still won the primary vote comfortably in New York and California and this is where you'll find the real diversity of America and I'd argue it's also the part of the United States that drives it's continual prosperity whether it be in finance, IT or the creative arts.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:01 am
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swoop42 wrote:
Trump won because of the support gained from those who associate the new found equality of minorities with white repression and after hundreds of years of privilege I guess they sadly can't tell the difference.

Hillary might have been a crap candidate but she still won the primary vote comfortably in New York and California and this is where you'll find the real diversity of America and I'd argue it's also the part of the United States that drives it's continual prosperity whether it be in finance, IT or the creative arts.


Swoop, I don’t know how many of them you have spoken to, or what you have read on the subject, but very few of the people who voted for him seem to have been motivated by racism. They were motivated by the offshoring of jobs, the insecurity of employment, the sense that many urban people did not like the country they live in while the poor do the dying for it, and much besides. Some might have been motivated by the forces you described. Some always are. They are usually few in number. I annot share your sweeping certainty or boilerplate beliefs about the “privilege” of so many people who are under real pressure.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:58 am
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swoop42 wrote:
Trump won because of the support gained from those who associate the new found equality of minorities with white repression and after hundreds of years of privilege I guess they sadly can't tell the difference.

Hillary might have been a crap candidate but she still won the primary vote comfortably in New York and California and this is where you'll find the real diversity of America and I'd argue it's also the part of the United States that drives it's continual prosperity whether it be in finance, IT or the creative arts.

That's unfair. There's little white repression carried out amongst the general population in the US. They have highly-trained local police forces whose job is to subjugate the black (and Hispanic) population systematically, so that white people don't have to think about it. "Sheets off, guys - let them see our pointy heads."
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:36 am
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^ plenty of sweeping racial generalization in that post. Not so much in the US.
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MJ23 



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:32 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
Trump won because of the support gained from those who associate the new found equality of minorities with white repression and after hundreds of years of privilege I guess they sadly can't tell the difference.

Hillary might have been a crap candidate but she still won the primary vote comfortably in New York and California and this is where you'll find the real diversity of America and I'd argue it's also the part of the United States that drives it's continual prosperity whether it be in finance, IT or the creative arts.


Can't really see anything in thus except the attitude of the elite towards the middle class. These same racists voted for Obama twice.
California is progressive however I'd suggest it's progressing towards unlivable. Not sure when you were there last but I'm not going back any time soon it's disgraceful.

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