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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
2.1. (ICE) use should not mitigate his responsibility
3. Sounds like he was a psychopath & violent man to begin with
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I find these curious claims. If he were literally a psychopath, then wouldn't that in some respects mitigate his responsibility? I think it's reasonable to argue that if he was impaired in any way (mental illness, drugs or both) then that does mitigate his responsibility (if not culpability, under our current legal paradigms). |
Sociopath / Psychopath & Anti Social PD / Dissocial PD are not mental illnesses.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
2.1. (ICE) use should not mitigate his responsibility
3. Sounds like he was a psychopath & violent man to begin with
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I find these curious claims. If he were literally a psychopath, then wouldn't that in some respects mitigate his responsibility? I think it's reasonable to argue that if he was impaired in any way (mental illness, drugs or both) then that does mitigate his responsibility (if not culpability, under our current legal paradigms). |
If he is a psychopath, he's not fixable. rehabilitation is not an option. We're all born with our own individual wiring, we either adapt our behaviour to society or we don't.
this bloke should be locked up, key thrown away, and stay there til he dies. if that's the case.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I don't necessarily disagree with indefinite detention in such cases, but that doesn't mean that the condition can't be managed as well as possible within an institutional setting. There's also the difficult issue that it's not against the law to be a psychopath, and some people (apparently) are able to manage such conditions quite functionally in society without ever committing crimes. So, this may be a more complex issue than it seems at first glance.
| watt price tully wrote: | | Sociopath / Psychopath & Anti Social PD / Dissocial PD are not mental illnesses. |
No, but neither are they something that one chooses or can necessarily do anything to change so the same principle applies, one presumes (whether or not the law currently reflects that).
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Thus, tucked away in the part of the text you didn't bold is the real issue - whether the Parliament should amend its Bail Act so that magistrates are required to apply different rules that make it harder for people accused of a wider bunch of serious crimes to get bail. |
Correct the current law is an ass!!
Violent crime - no bail end of! Don't give a tinker's cuss about the rights of the perpetrator they forfeit those rights when they inflict violence on others - they will get their day in court.
And sorry but volunteer after hours bail justices WTF!!! What sort of Mickey Mouse system is that 
We have Senior experienced Medical Consultants on call after hours to ensure that correct decisions and the appropriate treatment is given - not bloody volunteers!
Change the Act and take the ability to make decisions based on personal interpretation out of the hands of the judiciary and implement a professional system of managing bail applications all hours of the day with accountability for decisions made!!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What do you want to talk about now? |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | Thus, tucked away in the part of the text you didn't bold is the real issue - whether the Parliament should amend its Bail Act so that magistrates are required to apply different rules that make it harder for people accused of a wider bunch of serious crimes to get bail. |
Correct the current law is an ass!!
Violent crime - no bail end of! Don't give a tinker's cuss about the rights of the perpetrator they forfeit those rights when they inflict violence on others - they will get their day in court.
And sorry but volunteer after hours bail justices WTF!!! What sort of Mickey Mouse system is that
We have Senior experienced Medical Consultants on call after hours to ensure that correct decisions and the appropriate treatment is given - not bloody volunteers!
Change the Act and take the ability to make decisions based on personal interpretation out of the hands of the judiciary and implement a professional system of managing bail applications all hours of the day with accountability for decisions made!! |
I have no interest in defending the current system, just explaining how it works, as a matter of law. At the moment, what you will find is that isn't a problem with discretion; rather it's a problem with the lack of discretion afforded to decision-makers who must, as a matter of law, release people on bail unless specified circumstances exist. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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From the Emergency Department's perspective
"....Between 2.16pm and 3.30pm on Friday the hospital would treat 11 people, three in a critical condition, for broken bones, internal bleeding and head injuries.
It was the busiest emergency room in the city and there were so many doctors and nurses trying to help out, Prof Braitberg had to start turning people away.
"Watching it with trained eyes, although it was really busy and looked chaotic, it was absolutely beautifully performed. It was almost like an orchestra," he said.....
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bourke-street-attack-medical-staff-work-on-adrenaline-in-busiest-emergency-room-20170121-gtw0rz.htm
It ain't an ER (bloody americans) It's a whole department, Emergency Department that is.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ and they never get a pat on the back but the lab staff and in particular the blood bankers did an amazing job as they always do!
And the Red Cross Blood Service!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
I find these curious claims. If he were literally a psychopath, then wouldn't that in some respects mitigate his responsibility? I think it's reasonable to argue that if he was impaired in any way (mental illness, drugs or both) then that does mitigate his responsibility (if not culpability, under our current legal paradigms). |
Responsibity vs culpability ... discuss.
I am not an expert in this area (I once did a psychology degree, which mainly left me with a deep scepticism about the whole field), but I understand that "psychopaths", as defined, do not tend to behave as this individual did yesterday. Psychopaths tend to be premeditated, cold, and calculating. This fellow sounds as though he was in the grip of some kind of mania, quite possibly drug-fuelled.
In any event, I think we have to treat people who are not actually mentally incoherent as though they have free will, both in deference to their essential humanity and because a society which excuses acts of violence "because he could not help it" will subside toward chaos rather quickly.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: |
I find these curious claims. If he were literally a psychopath, then wouldn't that in some respects mitigate his responsibility? I think it's reasonable to argue that if he was impaired in any way (mental illness, drugs or both) then that does mitigate his responsibility (if not culpability, under our current legal paradigms). |
Responsibity vs culpability ... discuss.
I am not an expert in this area (I once did a psychology degree, which mainly left me with a deep scepticism about the whole field), but I understand that "psychopaths", as defined, do not tend to behave as this individual did yesterday. Psychopaths tend to be premeditated, cold, and calculating. This fellow sounds as though he was in the grip of some kind of mania, quite possibly drug-fuelled.
In any event, I think we have to treat people who are not actually mentally incoherent as though they have free will, both in deference to their essential humanity and because a society which excuses acts of violence "because he could not help it" will subside toward chaos rather quickly. |
Because I support a wholly consequentialist criminal justice philosophy, what I really want to see is fewer arbitrary distinctions made between genuinely mitigating circumstances and 'excuses' as if some factors leading to criminal behaviour were more 'real' than others and more of a clear-eyed assessment of whether rehabilitation might be possible and what might be required to achieve it.
For instance, if this guy suffers from a mental illness or personality disorder, and either were seen to have been a significant factor in his actions, I'd keep him sectioned off until it and other contributing factors were resolved at least, to a sufficient level that he was judged to no longer pose any more risk to society than the average citizen. The same would go for an individual with anger management problems, or a history of inappropriate sexual behaviour, or whatever. If I may use a questionable metaphor, you take them to the repair shop like a malfunctioning piece of machinery, fix them up and put them back to work again.
What I'm proposing isn't as radical or dystopian as it may sound: it's what we already do, more or less, only in a very rudimentary and dysfunctional way. When a judge takes into account an offender's background, or actions preceding the crime, or remorse, what they are assessing is, essentially, likelihood of re-offence. I just want to see that process better refined and to have some of the old ideas about inner goodness/badness or 'deserved' punishment (or leniency, as the case may be) stripped away.
All that may be hard to stomach in the aftermath of an atrocity like this, when the grief for the parents of this baby has only just begun, and others must contemplate a life without their loved ones their own lives cruelly and senselessly snatched away from them. But such bloodless rigour is an essential part of our justice system and an approach that protects us against the violent retribution that sometimes seems like the only possible satisfying option. We must fight against that urge, even in cases as heinous as this. Civilisation is too large a price to pay for it.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Maybe he's just an areshole
Stabbed his brother because he's gay
His own mother said he can go to hell and die in hell
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ It's a fair enough ideal, David, except :
1. You're right that metaphor is inadqeuate. We do not have this technology, unless you propose lobotomy or some other intervention to reliably and predictably alter personality which I think few of us would find ethical.
2. There is no deterrent effect in a justice which releases someone as soon as they seem suitably contrite and altered (even you could make a window into their soul, which you cannot). It would be a licence to murder.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | Maybe he's just an areshole
Stabbed his brother because he's gay
His own mother said he can go to hell and die in hell |
Arsehole in his sense makes him an anti social p*ick.
Working in the so called "helping professions" makes me all about empathy - I'm with his mother.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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