Homeless Issue
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Culprit wrote: | The plan is now to introduce a law to ban people sleeping on the streets. Great idea, arrest them and fine them and send them to jail, that will work.  
This is going to get ugly.
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Talk about focusing on the symptom and not the cause... who is proposing such a thing?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | The plan is now to introduce a law to ban people sleeping on the streets. Great idea, arrest them and fine them and send them to jail, that will work.
This is going to get ugly.
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Talk about focusing on the symptom and not the cause... who is proposing such a thing? |
The media have forced a U-turn from Police, Local and the State Government. We better start building more prisons. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ WPT, crime today is no worse than it was in the 1950s ?
Let's use one reliable indicator, the homicide rate. .....
Unfortunately, the permanent adolescents long ago poked at the rules and found mush, and so they kept pushing, and our society is now reaping the "rewards" of the 1968 revolutionaries in the tragic statistics quoted above. |
You really can't help yourself with this utter claptrap about the 60's - it's beginning to be so jejune that this reflexive nonsense is not worthy of you. Reduce complex matters to the bloody 60's. Dr Freud, did someone in a sheepskin jacket sleep with your girlfriend or something?
Leave it alone or you'll go blind.
Now of course you had no mention of the depression era?
You pick selective data that makes your view self serving in many respects.
You use the 1970's about serious assaults.....
How is data collected now compared to how it was collected then?
Compare over long periods.
Now I'm off to bed following a hard night shift.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:42 am; edited 2 times in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Interestingly, it shows death from assault is lower now than the last 3 decades. |
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Many victims of assault ( particularly with baseball bats to the head - I never realised we had so many baseball bats in this country till I worked in the high dependency neurosurg unit at RMH ) ........ |
I think the same thing working in ED now.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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I had the misfortune to walk past this stinky mess of "homeless" people yesterday. I've seen actual homeless people, they're not decked out like this lot!! Cushions, bedding, seats. lol. What a lot of effort to go to to get attention .
Most also seemed to have tattoos, be smoking and/or be high. All of which aren't cheap. Take the housing that's been offered, or better still, get a job.
Surely there's a fire hydrant somewhere nearby that the MFB can utilise? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ WPT, crime today is no worse than it was in the 1950s ?
Let's use one reliable indicator, the homicide rate. .....
Unfortunately, the permanent adolescents long ago poked at the rules and found mush, and so they kept pushing, and our society is now reaping the "rewards" of the 1968 revolutionaries in the tragic statistics quoted above. |
You really can't help yourself with this utter claptrap about the 60's - it's beginning to be so jejune that this reflexive nonsense is not worthy of you. Reduce complex matters to the bloody 60's. Dr Freud, did someone in a sheepskin jacket sleep with your girlfriend or something?
Leave it alone or you'll go blind.
Now of course you had no mention of the depression era?
You pick selective data that makes your view self serving in many respects.
You use the 1970's about serious assaults.....
How is data collected now compared to how it was collected then?
Compare over long periods.
Now I'm off to bed following a hard night shift. |
The data are for murder and serious assault. The point of these figures -especially murder - is that they are pretty comparable across time. And they show that the late 1960s started to see the breakdown of social order. I think they pretty much demolish your point that "there were some rough people around in Footscray and Richmond in 1950 so our society is no more violent today than it was." As the saying goes, you're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.
Why should it upset you so to consider the point - well made in these data and pretty universally understood - that something changed deeply in our society in the 1960s and early 1970s, and that the cultural assumptions which started then might be at the root of the social issues we face today ? Perhaps it was such a good time for your mate Albert Langer, "unreconstructed" supporter of the dictator Mao, murderer of millions and hater of intellectuals, that you can't let it go ?
The sixties is just shorthand for things that coincided in history because they are related. That decade produced some nice sounding pop, better fashions, and some good and necessary political reforms. But it also saw the rise of individualism and libertarianism, and the "me first" mentality, which we all carry deep within our cultural DNA, now.
Those brought forth changes in crime and policing, in youth attitudes, in education, and religious belief, and drugs, and divorce, and immigration, and sexuality, and a whole host of things which flow from them. Not all of those changes were bad, but many were revolutionary and I think they are now leading to a social breakdown which we fail to acknowledge. If it seems to you "reductive" or "simplistic" to use the period when it started as shorthand, then I suppose that is because you do not (want to) understand the point.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
If anyone bothers to look at the fact sheet I posted a link to, assaults definitely spiked from the 60's early 70's for the next few decades.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
If anyone bothers to look at the fact sheet I posted a link to, assaults definitely spiked from the 60's early 70's for the next few decades. |
I did, and you are right. It is not surprising. The only problem is that definitions and reporting rates of common assault change a lot over time. That's why murder rates and serious assaults are the gold standard indicator. They rarely go unreported.
Liberals rarely consider that feelgood policies, even when truly well-intentioned, may cause death and misery on a grand scale. That way they can go on believing that they are nice and that wicked Conservatives eat children.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| luvdids wrote: | I had the misfortune to walk past this stinky mess of "homeless" people yesterday. I've seen actual homeless people, they're not decked out like this lot!! Cushions, bedding, seats. lol. What a lot of effort to go to to get attention .
Most also seemed to have tattoos, be smoking and/or be high. All of which aren't cheap. Take the housing that's been offered, or better still, get a job.
Surely there's a fire hydrant somewhere nearby that the MFB can utilise? |
Exactly they have been offered accomodation and refused it so hopefully they will change the law so that they can move them on!
Fire hydrant - may need to fire up the desal plant for the water cannons that will be needed to clean the area!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I read the link. What a useless thing modern government is ! There are, what, two hundred people who have chosen, for whatever reason, to sleep rough in Melbourne ?
The government, which "earns" millions upon millions of dollars daily in property stamp duty alone, cannot arrange dormitory accommodation for these people and then forcibly move them into it so that they can be managed properly by human services ? Thereby improving the amenity of the city for which those vast taxes are extracted ? What is the government for, for goodness' sake ?
And the police, who say that they do not have powers, apparently do indeed, according to this article ? When did the police start making policy and deciding what jobs they want to do ? It's a great example of the gradual failure of everything that a jobsworth state has come to stand for. "There is no point removing somebody because they keep moving back ?" How does the will of one continued lawbreaker become mightier than the majesty of the people's representatives with their millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of employees ?
It really is worth reading twice, for the way hopelessness and inactivity has come to seem normal, and we are gradually gulled into accepting it.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: |
I read the link. What a useless thing modern government is ! There are, what, two hundred people who have chosen, for whatever reason, to sleep rough in Melbourne ?
The government, which earns every day millions upon millions of dollars in property stamp duty alone, cannot arrange dormitory accommodation for these people and then forcibly move them into it so that they can be managed properly by human services, and improve the amenity of the city for which those vast taxes are extracted ? What is the government for, for goodness' sake ? And the police, who say that they do not have powers, apparently do indeed, according to this article ? When did the police start deciding they made policy ? It's a great example of the gradual failure of everything that a jobsworth state has come to stand for. Can't remove somebody because they keep moving back ? How does the will of one continued lawbreaker become mightier than the majesty of the people's representatives with their millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of employees ?
It really is worth reading twice, for the way hopelessness and inactivity has come to seem normal, and we are gradually gulled into accepting it. |
Yep, genuine homeless people in Melbourne, probably more than a few due to psychological problems, need the help, and yes, even if they are interned forcefully. If it takes disrupting the tennis to achieve that, then good.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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