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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Quote from the article : "This became, and remained, a one-party state with no real democracy and very little political freedom. It was a state capitalist rather than a real socialist society."
Oh Lord ! Do people who write that kid of turgid propaganda still exist ?
 
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Worse than Castro by a fair way IMHO. Took a prosperous country and absolutely fkn trashed it. |
Yes, there are degrees of evil. I'd say he deserves his own circle of hell, but then, he created one on earth.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Given the viewpoint it's written from it's actually not bad. The biggest failing is the proposition that socialism could actually work anywhere as a genuine alternative form of government.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend.
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Yes it was David. |
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5150 
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| The Bacardi Family will be pleased with this. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Jezza wrote: | | The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend. |
You mean like people who can vilify Thatcher on her death as an evil biatch and then deify a dictator as a hero?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend. |
You mean like people who can vilify Thatcher on her death as an evil biatch and then deify a dictator as a hero? |
......There are also variations.......
...At first, Castro and his movement were democratic nationalists not socialists or communists. But hostility from the old Cuban ruling class and US imperialism pushed Castro and Cuba into nationalisation of various industries and into the Soviet camp. Castro in 1961 announced that the Cuban revolution was a socialist one....
From David's link
Castro was necessary at the time for Cuba as was Mao for China as any decent student of history will tell you. However they in turn became murderous thugs.
Thatcher would have been out on her arse except for one thing: Las Malvinas. The Argentines kicked a (massive) own goal. Without the intervention of the murderous generals of Argentina, Thatcher would have been completing a UB 40 form to join the ranks the over 3 million unemployed at the time.
The rest as they say is history.[/i]
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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A nasty piece of work, but he hasn't been President for 8 years. His brother is firmly in charge and Fidel's death, while a welcome relief to thousands of Cuban exiles is pretty meaningless.
Hopefully Ral keeps up with the reforms and opening of Cuba and one of the last sorry outposts of Socialism can fade into history. |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend. |
You mean like people who can vilify Thatcher on her death as an evil biatch and then deify a dictator as a hero? |
......There are also variations.......
...At first, Castro and his movement were democratic nationalists not socialists or communists. But hostility from the old Cuban ruling class and US imperialism pushed Castro and Cuba into nationalisation of various industries and into the Soviet camp. Castro in 1961 announced that the Cuban revolution was a socialist one....
From David's link
Castro was necessary at the time for Cuba as was Mao for China as any decent student of history will tell you. However they in turn became murderous thugs.
Thatcher would have been out on her arse except for one thing: Las Malvinas. The Argentines kicked a (massive) own goal. Without the intervention of the murderous generals of Argentina, Thatcher would have been completing a UB 40 form to join the ranks the over 3 million unemployed at the time.
The rest as they say is history.[/i] |
I guess the improving economy had nothing to do with her re-election.
So how do you explain her 1987 victory?
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Spiral progress, unstoppable,
exhausted sources replaced by perversion |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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| Wokko wrote: | | and one of the last sorry outposts of Socialism can fade into history. |
Amen to that.
_________________
Spiral progress, unstoppable,
exhausted sources replaced by perversion |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend. |
You mean like people who can vilify Thatcher on her death as an evil biatch and then deify a dictator as a hero? |
......There are also variations.......
...At first, Castro and his movement were democratic nationalists not socialists or communists. But hostility from the old Cuban ruling class and US imperialism pushed Castro and Cuba into nationalisation of various industries and into the Soviet camp. Castro in 1961 announced that the Cuban revolution was a socialist one....
From David's link
Castro was necessary at the time for Cuba as was Mao for China as any decent student of history will tell you. However they in turn became murderous thugs.
Thatcher would have been out on her arse except for one thing: Las Malvinas. The Argentines kicked a (massive) own goal. Without the intervention of the murderous generals of Argentina, Thatcher would have been completing a UB 40 form to join the ranks the over 3 million unemployed at the time.
The rest as they say is history.[/i] |
Goodness, such certainty based on a completely unknowable set of circumstances. In fact the UK Labour Party went into the 1983 election under a manifesto resonantly memorialised by Gerald Kaufman, one of its ablest MPs, as "the longest suicide note in history". I think it would have been a close run thing, as 1983 were dark days, but the memory of the Winter of Discontent was still strong, and Labour riven with civil war and almost unelectable. I suspect she would have won, though it would have been a close thing but for the Falklands. The ringing certainty that she would have lost shows a lack of familiarity with the context of the place and time.
The historical "necessity" of any figure is something that "any decent student of history" would avoid suggesting, if they wanted to pass. Maybe it'd get a pass in the Marxist historiography module. Maybe.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mountains Magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend. |
You mean like people who can vilify Thatcher on her death as an evil biatch and then deify a dictator as a hero? |
......There are also variations.......
...At first, Castro and his movement were democratic nationalists not socialists or communists. But hostility from the old Cuban ruling class and US imperialism pushed Castro and Cuba into nationalisation of various industries and into the Soviet camp. Castro in 1961 announced that the Cuban revolution was a socialist one....
From David's link
Castro was necessary at the time for Cuba as was Mao for China as any decent student of history will tell you. However they in turn became murderous thugs.
Thatcher would have been out on her arse except for one thing: Las Malvinas. The Argentines kicked a (massive) own goal. Without the intervention of the murderous generals of Argentina, Thatcher would have been completing a UB 40 form to join the ranks the over 3 million unemployed at the time.
The rest as they say is history.[/i] |
I guess the improving economy had nothing to do with her re-election.
So how do you explain her 1987 victory? |
Mate she was more sunk than the Belgrado in the UK. I was there at the time. Even most of Fleet Street had it in for her. She was more far gone than a teenage boys school locker.
Post war the Iron lady wasn't going to lose nuffink. It was very quickly stated at the time "Now we'll see what mettle the Iron lady is made of" 
Nothing like a good war to rally the troops & that's what occurred. It didn't quite fall into her lap but she is still sending christmas cards from her grave to the graves of the Argentinian generals.
Thatchers's ruthlessness & toughness was becoming a burden for the tories at the time in the public view. Unemployment was skyrocketing & out of control ; Post war her callous persona was cherished as an asset. The rest as they say is history (or mere filling).
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | The hypocrisy of some people on the left has been a real eye opener this weekend. |
You mean like people who can vilify Thatcher on her death as an evil biatch and then deify a dictator as a hero? |
......There are also variations.......
...At first, Castro and his movement were democratic nationalists not socialists or communists. But hostility from the old Cuban ruling class and US imperialism pushed Castro and Cuba into nationalisation of various industries and into the Soviet camp. Castro in 1961 announced that the Cuban revolution was a socialist one....
From David's link
Castro was necessary at the time for Cuba as was Mao for China as any decent student of history will tell you. However they in turn became murderous thugs.
Thatcher would have been out on her arse except for one thing: Las Malvinas. The Argentines kicked a (massive) own goal. Without the intervention of the murderous generals of Argentina, Thatcher would have been completing a UB 40 form to join the ranks the over 3 million unemployed at the time.
The rest as they say is history.[/i] |
Goodness, such certainty based on a completely unknowable set of circumstances. In fact the UK Labour Party went into the 1983 election under a manifesto resonantly memorialised by Gerald Kaufman, one of its ablest MPs, as "the longest suicide note in history". I think it would have been a close run thing, as 1983 were dark days, but the memory of the Winter of Discontent was still strong, and Labour riven with civil war and almost unelectable. I suspect she would have won, though it would have been a close thing but for the Falklands. The ringing certainty that she would have lost shows a lack of familiarity with the context of the place and time.
The historical "necessity" of any figure is something that "any decent student of history" would avoid suggesting, if they wanted to pass. Maybe it'd get a pass in the Marxist historiography module. Maybe. |
I was in the UK at the time & Fleet street & the tories were against her. You underestimate a good war. Still, sitting in the smoking room you were drinking too much claret to look outside of the smoke filled rooms.
Do not underestimate the effects of a good war which she didn't cause of course & I'm not blaming her for it. But only a fool or the myopic indeed a non student of history would discount the primacy of the war in contributing to her continued leadership
As for Kaufmann: Opposition's don't win government, governments lose them. The only decent thing Kaufman has done is to oppose Fox Hunting
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mountains Magpie wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | and one of the last sorry outposts of Socialism can fade into history. |
Amen to that. |
ironic but accurate.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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