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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Describe your surroundings. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | No, not equating reform with revolution - Conservarives have often been in the vanguard of reform. Erasing important events from your nation's history is not reform, however. It is very very reminiscent of the formulation of 1984 - who controls the past controls the present, and who controls the preeent. Bottoms the future. etc. As I said, those who want to experiment with the future hate the past because the ordinary natural human attachment to it forms a kind of popular oppositional memory. In any event, the really key point remains the irrefutable one that the greatest influence on the successful look,feel and political nature of modern Australia is the British settlement commencing in1788. It takes a lot of propaganda to whitewash that reality. Fortunately the Australian people still seem attached to their real history. |
Orwell's formulation was a simple statement of fact, of the way things are in all societies. We are not talking about the erasure of history in any way, shape or form, however; one presumes that 1788 will still be taught in school textbooks! Likewise, any political action (of which maintaining the status quo is very much one) is a form of "experimenting with the future". I'm not sure why you're suggesting that these are things only people of certain political ideologies or agendas are trying to do.
I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion of the fundamental importance of 1788 on shaping Australia as we know it today (though a lot has happened in the intervening period, needless to say would we still point to 1066 or the earlier Saxon or Roman conquests as the key moment in British history?). Whether it should be celebrated as our national day is, naturally, an entirely separate question. We don't get to choose our history, but we do get to choose which parts of it we especially cherish.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | No, not equating reform with revolution - Conservarives have often been in the vanguard of reform. Erasing important events from your nation's history is not reform, however. It is very very reminiscent of the formulation of 1984 - who controls the past controls the present, and who controls the preeent. Bottoms the future. etc. As I said, those who want to experiment with the future hate the past because the ordinary natural human attachment to it forms a kind of popular oppositional memory. In any event, the really key point remains the irrefutable one that the greatest influence on the successful look,feel and political nature of modern Australia is the British settlement commencing in1788. It takes a lot of propaganda to whitewash that reality. Fortunately the Australian people still seem attached to their real history. |
That is really overstating it in my view & where the reactionaries get it all wrong. The section I've highlighted is gilding the lily just a smidgen & smacks of polemics. "The Australian people" indeed Mugwump 
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Presti35 
Dick Lee for Legend Status
Joined: 05 Oct 2001
Location: London, England
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Lets just blow the Earth up and be done with it.
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A Goal Saved Is 2 Goals Earned! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| What day did Russell Morris record "The Real Thing"? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | No, not equating reform with revolution - Conservarives have often been in the vanguard of reform. Erasing important events from your nation's history is not reform, however. It is very very reminiscent of the formulation of 1984 - who controls the past controls the present, and who controls the preeent. Bottoms the future. etc. As I said, those who want to experiment with the future hate the past because the ordinary natural human attachment to it forms a kind of popular oppositional memory. In any event, the really key point remains the irrefutable one that the greatest influence on the successful look,feel and political nature of modern Australia is the British settlement commencing in1788. It takes a lot of propaganda to whitewash that reality. Fortunately the Australian people still seem attached to their real history. |
That is really overstating it in my view & where the reactionaries get it all wrong. The section I've highlighted is gilding the lily just a smidgen & smacks of polemics. "The Australian people" indeed Mugwump |
I'm sure it is overstating it in your view. Would you mind explaining the sneering last line in your post , though ? I would have thought it obvious that celebrations of Australia Day on 26 January are as enthusiastic today as ever.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | No, not equating reform with revolution - Conservarives have often been in the vanguard of reform. Erasing important events from your nation's history is not reform, however. It is very very reminiscent of the formulation of 1984 - who controls the past controls the present, and who controls the preeent. Bottoms the future. etc. As I said, those who want to experiment with the future hate the past because the ordinary natural human attachment to it forms a kind of popular oppositional memory. In any event, the really key point remains the irrefutable one that the greatest influence on the successful look,feel and political nature of modern Australia is the British settlement commencing in1788. It takes a lot of propaganda to whitewash that reality. Fortunately the Australian people still seem attached to their real history. |
Orwell's formulation was a simple statement of fact, of the way things are in all societies. We are not talking about the erasure of history in any way, shape or form, however; one presumes that 1788 will still be taught in school textbooks! Likewise, any political action (of which maintaining the status quo is very much one) is a form of "experimenting with the future". I'm not sure why you're suggesting that these are things only people of certain political ideologies or agendas are trying to do.
I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion of the fundamental importance of 1788 on shaping Australia as we know it today (though a lot has happened in the intervening period, needless to say would we still point to 1066 or the earlier Saxon or Roman conquests as the key moment in British history?). Whether it should be celebrated as our national day is, naturally, an entirely separate question. We don't get to choose our history, but we do get to choose which parts of it we especially cherish. |
You are not erasing the event as a day, but y abolishing its observance you are presumably imposing a narrative of shame and disgrace upon it, and for the reasons I have explained above, I think that is an act which forgets the defining elements that emerged specifically from that settlement. I think it is interesting that the accommodative and constructive suggestion of a day to acknowledge and appreciate indigenous Australians is met instead with a demand to ban the observance of a day marking the epochal British settlement. It's a strange totalist mindset, imposing a very simplistic narrative on our history.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | No, not equating reform with revolution - Conservarives have often been in the vanguard of reform. Erasing important events from your nation's history is not reform, however. It is very very reminiscent of the formulation of 1984 - who controls the past controls the present, and who controls the preeent. Bottoms the future. etc. As I said, those who want to experiment with the future hate the past because the ordinary natural human attachment to it forms a kind of popular oppositional memory. In any event, the really key point remains the irrefutable one that the greatest influence on the successful look,feel and political nature of modern Australia is the British settlement commencing in1788. It takes a lot of propaganda to whitewash that reality. Fortunately the Australian people still seem attached to their real history. |
That is really overstating it in my view & where the reactionaries get it all wrong. The section I've highlighted is gilding the lily just a smidgen & smacks of polemics. "The Australian people" indeed Mugwump |
I'm sure it is overstating it in your view. Would you mind explaining the sneering last line in your post , though ? I would have thought it obvious that celebrations of Australia Day on 26 January are as enthusiastic today as ever. |
No sneering whatsoever & I'm surprised at ur interpretation of what I posted. It read to me as being a tad gradiose if not presumptuous as though you were speaking on behalf of the " people of Australia" - like a politician.
I was just waiting for you to drape yourself with the Australian flag 😜
From my iPhone - (I note this in case of accidental typos)
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ fair enough, thanks for explaining and yes I can see how it might have sounded. I bridled as I suspected you were questioning my australianness just because I live abroad. I can see that you were not. Thanks
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | Orwell's formulation was a simple statement of fact, of the way things are in all societies. We are not talking about the erasure of history in any way, shape or form, however; one presumes that 1788 will still be taught in school textbooks! Likewise, any political action (of which maintaining the status quo is very much one) is a form of "experimenting with the future". I'm not sure why you're suggesting that these are things only people of certain political ideologies or agendas are trying to do.
I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion of the fundamental importance of 1788 on shaping Australia as we know it today (though a lot has happened in the intervening period, needless to say would we still point to 1066 or the earlier Saxon or Roman conquests as the key moment in British history?). Whether it should be celebrated as our national day is, naturally, an entirely separate question. We don't get to choose our history, but we do get to choose which parts of it we especially cherish. |
You are not erasing the event as a day, but y abolishing its observance you are presumably imposing a narrative of shame and disgrace upon it, and for the reasons I have explained above, I think that is an act which forgets the defining elements that emerged specifically from that settlement. I think it is interesting that the accommodative and constructive suggestion of a day to acknowledge and appreciate indigenous Australians is met instead with a demand to ban the observance of a day marking the epochal British settlement. It's a strange totalist mindset, imposing a very simplistic narrative on our history. |
Again, this is such extreme language: "imposing a narrative"; "ban"; "totalist". Is anyone proposing that you be legally blocked from firing up the barbecue and singing the anthem on the 26th, if that date still holds resonance for you in the future? Was a narrative of shame imposed on God Save the Queen when it ceased to be our national anthem?
I dare say that, once it has ceased to be our national day, the anniversary of the landings will be treated much the same in its future as it is now: as a day with important but problematic associations. If anything, it might liberate it from some of the angst and negativity that surround it right now.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | As for being ruled by the Spanish, Morrigu, was it the tapas, the Rioja, the successive military coups or the Fascism that first attracted you ?  . |
Hmmm initially I think it was the devilishly handsome men speaking a musical language - but then they produced Rioja wine, Jerez sherry, tapas and paella- SOLD!!  |
To channel Blackadder further, "what made you do it ? Was it the pumpernickel, or the thought of hanging around with big men in leather shorts" ?? |
Ah so you suspect me eh Mug - no I am nought but an Irish Darling
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | What day did Russell Morris record "The Real Thing"? |
Day? Molly spent months fiddling with that in the studio, including adding the Hitler Youth boys choir toward the end.
1 day is plenty, don't need months, thanks.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | Orwell's formulation was a simple statement of fact, of the way things are in all societies. We are not talking about the erasure of history in any way, shape or form, however; one presumes that 1788 will still be taught in school textbooks! Likewise, any political action (of which maintaining the status quo is very much one) is a form of "experimenting with the future". I'm not sure why you're suggesting that these are things only people of certain political ideologies or agendas are trying to do.
I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion of the fundamental importance of 1788 on shaping Australia as we know it today (though a lot has happened in the intervening period, needless to say would we still point to 1066 or the earlier Saxon or Roman conquests as the key moment in British history?). Whether it should be celebrated as our national day is, naturally, an entirely separate question. We don't get to choose our history, but we do get to choose which parts of it we especially cherish. |
You are not erasing the event as a day, but y abolishing its observance you are presumably imposing a narrative of shame and disgrace upon it, and for the reasons I have explained above, I think that is an act which forgets the defining elements that emerged specifically from that settlement. I think it is interesting that the accommodative and constructive suggestion of a day to acknowledge and appreciate indigenous Australians is met instead with a demand to ban the observance of a day marking the epochal British settlement. It's a strange totalist mindset, imposing a very simplistic narrative on our history. |
Again, this is such extreme language: "imposing a narrative"; "ban"; "totalist". Is anyone proposing that you be legally blocked from firing up the barbecue and singing the anthem on the 26th, if that date still holds resonance for you in the future? Was a narrative of shame imposed on God Save the Queen when it ceased to be our national anthem?
I dare say that, once it has ceased to be our national day, the anniversary of the landings will be treated much the same in its future as it is now: as a day with important but problematic associations. If anything, it might liberate it from some of the angst and negativity that surround it right now. |
Ban, dethrone, abolish, de-recognise : choose the word you will. I would say that "Invasion Day" is many times more extreme and simplistic. The point is that it is our national day today, and has been for many years - and because of an imposed association with shame and disgrace, it would cease to be. As, I gather, would Christmas and Easter cease to be national days in your new order.
If you think Orwell was simply chatting about "facts" then you either need to read the book again, or you're surely being disingenuous. The Marxists fight over this stuff because they know that it helps to anchor a people to memories that have political meaning.
God Save the Queen was rightly replaced as our national anthem because it was already the national anthem of another country. Australian symbols and commemorations should recognise the uniqueness of Australia's historic experience - such as the transformational and defining event that occurred on the 26th January. I know that the Leftists want young Australians to not be taught, and thus to forget, the legacy of the common law and liberty of the subject, constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, and the roots of their freedom. So would I if I wanted to create new men fit to live in their state-controlled, semi-literate, culturally denatured country; a country which will doubtless prove unable to defend itself when history's gangsters come knocking, as they surely will, eventually. People and places which can be taught that they were founded on illegitimacy will make fine slaves for new overlords.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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This here's the wattle, the emblem of our land. You can stick it in a bottle, you can hold it in your hand.
Forget the motherland..........
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | What day did Russell Morris record "The Real Thing"? |
Long long long ago when he was oh so cute!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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