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mandy 
Joined: 03 Jun 2001
Location: Glen Iris
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| Jezza wrote: |
Melbourne only just beat us for the first time this year on Queens' Birthday since 2007.
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Only "just"? 
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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I phrased it badly, but what I'm saying is that they never beat us on Queens Birthday between 2008 to 2015 (we did draw in 2010).
Anyway, we're going off-topic now 
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | For those that want to change the date, what would be an ideal date to celebrate Australia Day? |
1 January, Federation Day. But that'd mean giving up a public holiday, and we dont care enough to sacrifice that.
Alternatively, dont listen to the look at me brigade and celebrate it harder on 26 Jan - the day we inherited parliamentary democracy, the common law, the liberty of the subject, and the many habits of mind and government that have made us one of the most successful, desirable and pleasant countries in the world.
The sulkers can spend their time considering how it might have been under the Spanish, had Nelson not clubbed them into the ocean at Trafalgar. |
No! Why can't we have a day that all Australians can join together and celebrate the fact that despite its issues we live in a great country!
The loudest and most heard voices may well be as you say the " look at me" brigade but that is the not the real reason we should change the date - it is genuinely upsetting to indigenous communities - I am not talking about the urbanised what about us mob even though their thoughts and opinions are of course relevant - I worked as a nurse in the remote communities of NT and WA for some time - it is not something they can celebrate and I found no malice just a sadness.
I'm not sure how you can expect them to celebrate inheriting parliamentary democracy and common law - it was not until 1967 that indigenous people were even counted when determining numbers in electorates.
Why can't we have a different day that brings us together - why is that so hard??
That being said Australia Day holds no importance and relevance to me - as the years have passed it is now just another commerical opportunity - shiploads of shite "Aussie " merchandise ( all manufactured in China  ) and drunken fck wits roaming around with Aussie flags as capes and fck off we're full tee shirts whilst chanting Oi Oi Oi - or whatever!
Oh and I have considered it - halo ah i so wish it had been the Spanish  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | Yes, that's what we need - more symbolic silliness whereby we can pretend to care about what happened to indigenous people 230 years ago. As WH Auden said (in a slightly different context), our greatest love is music, because it can be made anywhere, is invisible, and does not smell. This is political music.
If all of the fashionable historical hand-wringers actually campaigned for a lift in the tax rate, creating a medicare-like fund dedicated to creating effective infrastructure and services in Aboriginal settlements, that would be a real, gutsy policy. Instead, no - let's express our look-at-me compassion by moving dates around, whingeing about things our ancestors did in an age further away than Mars, and perhaps tax a few mining royalties because that'll never show up in the price of a latte.
This age of narcissism will be remembered, I think, for such pious vacuities. |
We can walk and chew gum. I don't devote every waking hour to trying to get Australia Day moved to a different date, but I do support the idea and hope that it will happen. Symbolism matters (and if it doesn't, why even have a national holiday to begin with?).
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Jezza wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | (the latter made worse by Melbourne regularly beating us for their annual moment of glory!). |
Melbourne only just beat us for the first time this year on Queens' Birthday since 2007.
It's been an enjoyable affair up until now. |
LOL - that shows you how out of touch I am! [Note to self: gag order on the topic of footy ]
I was just thinking this morning that I have lost touch with Aussie politics, too. Basically, my knowledge of what's going on ended with the ridding of Abbott and my support for Turnbull as temporary sane holding pattern.
As you can imagine, European politics pretty much takes up most of my attention, offering a real-time example of the importance of experience and practice in knowledge, as discussed here: http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?t=81400
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | Yes, that's what we need - more symbolic silliness whereby we can pretend to care about what happened to indigenous people 230 years ago. As WH Auden said (in a slightly different context), our greatest love is music, because it can be made anywhere, is invisible, and does not smell. This is political music.
If all of the fashionable historical hand-wringers actually campaigned for a lift in the tax rate, creating a medicare-like fund dedicated to creating effective infrastructure and services in Aboriginal settlements, that would be a real, gutsy policy. Instead, no - let's express our look-at-me compassion by moving dates around, whingeing about things our ancestors did in an age further away than Mars, and perhaps tax a few mining royalties because that'll never show up in the price of a latte.
This age of narcissism will be remembered, I think, for such pious vacuities. |
We can walk and chew gum. I don't devote every waking hour to trying to get Australia Day moved to a different date, but I do support the idea and hope that it will happen. Symbolism matters (and if it doesn't, why even have a national holiday to begin with?). |
I am attracted to the idea of a day acknowledging and celebrating the Aboriginal history of Australia. But to call 26th January "invasion day" is simply to write only one narrative about British settlement - to walk, indeed, without chewing gum. It is to suppress a narrative that recognises the many modern Australian virtues that derive from it having been settled by the British rather than the other likely powers at the time : from language, to law, to democracy, right down to our sense of humour and our sports, Australia is what it is because of British settlement.
Meanwhile, fiddling with the day while we tolerate the conditions of Aboriginal life today seems very shallow to me. The people who want to change the day would do better giving a tenth of their income to alleviating the conditions that really matter.
As for being ruled by the Spanish, Morrigu, was it the tapas, the Rioja, the successive military coups or the Fascism that first attracted you ?
More seriously, I do understand that indigenous people see the day negatively, and that is why I would support a complementary day. They do hold a unique place in the history of this land, and it would do justice to their, and our, identity to recognise that. But Australia is what it is because of what happened in 1770 and 1788. A nation that forgets and hates its past is on the way to self-abolition.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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That's just a very silly dichotomy. Sensible views about the country's past are more nuanced than that.
I manage to like the Kinks and accept that 26 January is a poor choice for an Australian national day. Not every accommodation of other people's views is an actual threat to our way of life. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Why don't we scrap it completely? Seems it off ends just about every minority in some shape or form? And how about Christmas, Easter, Greek Easter, bahmitva, Israeli day, (I'm sure they have one don't know what it's called) Boxing Day (upsets the boxers I'm sure), Melbourne cup day, (animal rights) labour day (dole bludgers get upset I'm sure), and no flags, let's scrap flags, we could just have numbers, oh wait, can you imagine the scramble for the order? Doesn't matter what happens, there will always be a squeaky wheel of unhappiness
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mugwump wrote: |
More seriously, I do understand that indigenous people see the day negatively, and that is why I would support a complementary day. They do hold a unique place in the history of this land, and it would do justice to their, and our, identity to recognise that. But Australia is what it is because of what happened in 1770 and 1788. A nation that forgets and hates its past is on the way to self-abolition. |
I'd agree with that.
The first landing is a significant historical event and deserves commemoration.
Coming up with a suitable other event would be difficult, I'd suggest holding off until we get the constitution changed to recognise the Aboriginals and use that as the event to trigger a new public day of recognition moving forward. No trying to find something from history past and twist it, start with the new and the symbolism that holds, moving forward together.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Do we mark it as a "significant historical event" in the history of our country or because it's the day the British occupation force landed? It strikes me that it's a little like giving Dennis the "best Colonial bowler" award in 1977 - it's a quintessentially British viewpoint, not an Australian one, that focuses on the arrival of the First Fleet.
It isn't much related to the founding of the present Australian nation-state - the appropriate day would probably be the day the Australia Act was passed in 1986 and we became actually independent of the English Overlords.
It's quite quaint that we mark the arrival of the first few prison ships to get here. The Anericans don't mark their national day by commemorating the arrival of the first boat from the UK. They mark it by the day they signed their Declaration of Independence.
Then again, perhaps it is entirely apt - when I google "independence Australia", I get links to a disability support organisation.... |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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Just get rid of it and throw out the Australian of the Year awards as well. No replacement, nothing. Same with Queens birthday. We got rid of show day which aside from Melbourne Cup Day was the only decent one we had.
Let the working classes argue it out with "thanks for effing nothing".
Citizenship ceremonies can be held on any day. Or get rid of them as well.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I'm not sure about the award suggestion. Most of my mates have their OAK and I must be just about due (unless, of course, the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet work out who I am). |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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| Post subject: Re: Australia day to be celebrated on the 28th Jan. | |
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| Bucks5 wrote: | | Is this Policital correctness gone mad? |
I would've thought is was out of control long before this 
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | Do we mark it as a "significant historical event" in the history of our country or because it's the day the British occupation force landed? It strikes me that it's a little like giving Dennis the "best Colonial bowler" award in 1977 - it's a quintessentially British viewpoint, not an Australian one, that focuses on the arrival of the First Fleet.
It isn't much related to the founding of the present Australian nation-state - the appropriate day would probably be the day the Australia Act was passed in 1986 and we became actually independent of the English Overlords.
It's quite quaint that we mark the arrival of the first few prison ships to get here. The Anericans don't mark their national day by commemorating the arrival of the first boat from the UK. They mark it by the day they signed their Declaration of Independence.
Then again, perhaps it is entirely apt - when I google "independence Australia", I get links to a disability support organisation.... |
it is a strange kind of overlord who does not actually interfere in Austrlaian affairs. The last time a foreigner was asked to do so, I believe, was when Gough Whitlam - that great republican - actually had a sudden change of heart and asked the Queen to overturn John Kerr's appointment - an appointment which he, Whitlam, had recommended and she had duly made. She rightly declined, considering that it was a matter for the Australian Governor-General and Prime Minister to resolve, rather than outside powers. A strange "overlordship" indeed. Or maybe, like your "invasion fleet" comment, not an "overlordship" at all, in fact, however useful that may be as a rhetorical device. Maybe it is simply an inheritance from a parent who has wisely allowed the child to grow into an adult without much interference. Maybe the child will eventually be adult enough to see the parent's faults while being grateful for its inherited endowment, not trapped in permanent adolescent chippiness.
1788 clearly marks the commencement of European (specifically, British) settlement and this the foundations of modern Australia's parliamentary and legal system, and therefore the type of country that it is. You are free to choose to deny that, because it is, partly thanks to that legacy and its development by our predecessors, a free country, even if we are busy forgetting why it is so.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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luvdids
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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I agree with both sides, agree with Stui that without the first fleet arriving, what would have become of this land?
Yet, when the first fleet DID arrive, they absolutely treated the aboriginals appallingly, stole their children, barely seemed to acknowledge their existence, refused to even count them in the population (as Morrigu pointed out), not allowed to vote, etc etc. So I get that some call it 'invasion day' & can totally understand why.
But how to find a happy medium? |
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