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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Culprit wrote: | .
Yep she crossed the line that's for sure. Was it about power or love? Does it matter as she was a teacher? Mind you if this was a Male teacher and a female patient we would be harsher in our views?
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Okay, we all seem to be pretty much on the same page, let's discuss this question by Culprit.
I reckon sub consciously people would be. But should they be? Do we just assume that a woman is not a predator in these situations, but a man is?
I don't think we should. Why? Well I can only look at the people I've come across in my life, and I reckon I've met a fair few devious women! Yes I find women more likely to have romantic ideals about situations in general, but I've also met my fair share of women who seem to be, as Jennifer put it "missing a sensitivity chip"!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: |
But did she harm him? I can't think of a more fundamentally important question here. You may think Tannin is being too flippant, but have you created a victim where there is none? |
Lets assume he has the intellect of a 3 year old.
You could argue on one hand there is harm as he couldn't actually consent. On the other hand, unlike the average 3 year old, he's not going to grow mentally in intellect, knowledge and understanding and therefore not develop any issues as he grows up. So on that argument, there's no harm caused.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ That's the view I'm leaning towards too. But I understand it might be a controversial one.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Nup
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you have any conditions I should know about? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Nup
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you like talking to me? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| HAL wrote: | | Do you like talking to me? |
Nup
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: The strange case of Anna Stubblefield | |
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She's been sentenced to 12 years in prison, 10 without parole. Peter Singer argues in her defence below:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/03/opinion/who-is-the-victim-in-the-anna-stubblefield-case.html
| Quote: | Rosemary Crossley, the defense’s expert on communicating with people with physical disabilities, assessed D.J.’s ability to communicate, spending 12 hours with him over three days, and found that he “wanted to communicate and was able to communicate, given appropriate strategies.” Her assessment was filmed by cameras in two positions. It was not based on facilitated communication but on methods that could have been viewed and judged by the jurors, such as requiring D.J. to touch, unaided, a “yes” or “no” button on a communication device and to answer multiple-choice questions, most of which he had to read for himself. Under these conditions, D.J. correctly answered 43 of 45 factual questions. The judge refused to allow Crossley to testify about her assessment, claiming that Crossley improperly assisted D.J. during the evaluation. The judge also did not allow the members of the jury to see the videos, which would have enabled them to judge for themselves whether Crossley had influenced the outcome.
She did, however, permit the prosecution to display D.J. to the jury for a few moments in his mute and [snip] condition. It is well established in the psychological literature that people tend to infer cognitive disability from severe physical disability, especially when the disabled individual is unable to speak. There is no reason to suppose that the members of the jury were immune to this tendency. Yet fewer than 50 percent of those with cerebral palsy have any degree of cognitive impairment. In an amicus brief, intended to be heard in conjunction with Stubblefield’s appeal, the American Civil Liberties Union, joined by various disability rights organizations, said that in exhibiting D.J. to the jury in this manner, the court had failed to protect his rights. The appellate court, however, has refused to consider the A.C.L.U.’s brief. |
Personally, I still don't know what to think of this facilitated communication method and think it's quite possible that Stubblefield was deluding herself and everyone else around her. But I also agree with Singer that the way the case was handled was unjust and that the sentence was manifestly excessive. What do you think?
<edit: thanks to P4S for pointing out the existing thread on this – not sure where my memory is going...>
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Last edited by David on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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hard one.
First point, IMHO the opinion of philosophers is irrelevant. They're theoreticians not medical practitioners.
Second point. facilitated communication as described is open to abuse in the same way a Ouija board can be manipulated. Not saying it was in this case but it could be.
if the defence re-works their case with some credible medical practitioners inputting and devises some different tests of his ability to comprehend and communicate which minimise the ability for someone to influence, they potentially have a winnable case on appeal
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ No less relevant than that of any other non-expert observer, which is pretty much everyone not involved in this particular field of research or the legal profession. Singer is writing about the ethics of the case, an area he's certainly qualified to explore!
Otherwise, for a successful appeal, I suspect that a lot will come down to what kind of evidence the presiding judge permits this time around. I more or less share your view on facilitated communication, though – whether or not it works sometimes, it certainly seems possible that it could be easily manipulated.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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It's a pretty sad case, whatever the truth is.
Totally agree about the possibility for manipulation, though if he answered 43/45 factual questions using yes/no push buttons or multiple choice questions, surely that counts for something.
What's sad is misconceptions: disabled people don't have sexual urges. That's just not true at least for some and surely they have rights?
On Chicago med last week they had a funny story line, an old Romeo type gave three different women the clap! When the berated him for screwing around, he said ask the ladies how they feel. We are all too old to want the stress of a relationship, but we still have feelings, wants etc. fair point.
One of my eldest daughters friends had a brother with severe mental disabilities, I remember the anguish her mum went through when her son with a mental age of about 5-6 became a 6 foot 16 year old with the sexual urges to go with it. She literally had to lock him and her daughter apart. Then he got violent and they had to put him in care, he's in a s hare house now I believe, but with live in carers. Such a heart breaking decision to make.
The fine line is protecting anyone from being manipulated, assaulted. I remember one lady in my mothers nursing home, she had full faculties about her, but she could not even feed herself, she was a very clever switched on lady, and I can't imagine anything worse. But no one would doubt her wishes. It's very hard. And just like child services, a terribly terribly difficult job, you need the right people to make the right decisions.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | hard one.
First point, IMHO the opinion of philosophers is irrelevant. They're theoreticians not medical practitioners.
Second point. facilitated communication as described is open to abuse in the same way a Ouija board can be manipulated. Not saying it was in this case but it could be.
if the defence re-works their case with some credible medical practitioners inputting and devises some different tests of his ability to comprehend and communicate which minimise the ability for someone to influence, they potentially have a winnable case on appeal |
Not that I want to spoil anyone's fun but the appeal is unlikely to involve the leading of any further evidence. It will likely proceed on, amongst other things, hypothecation about whether the introduction of excluded evidence was likely to have resulted in a different outcome and, if so, whether that was (speaking colloquially) "fair" or "unfair".
Otherwise, while the outcome of the legal procedures might have been and in the future be determined by lawyers and doctors, most of the important questions it raises can only be authoritatively dealt with by philosophers.
Last edited by Pies4shaw on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
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I'd be interested on your opinion about this, thoughts?
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