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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Linus Torvalds.  |
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dalyc 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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So let's turn this on its head, what draft pick would you want for Witts and what would you want for Grundy?
Me, I'd want second round for Witts and low first round for Grundy
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Four legged animals good, two legged animals better |
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woftam 
I used to be undecided, but now I'm not so sure.
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Carum Downs, Vic
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| dalyc wrote: | So let's turn this on its head, what draft pick would you want for Witts and what would you want for Grundy?
Me, I'd want second round for Witts and low first round for Grundy |
Thank god you aren't negotiating on our behalf. That's all I'll say for now. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Grundy played damn well in the 2nd half of the year, and I'm a fan. Don't get me wrong on that aspect.
He blocks well, links up well and plays as an extra midfielder, but his weaknesses are he's not great overhead, he's short for a modern ruckman and he doesn't have much of a leap.
He'll be a clearance beast and a very good player, I just think Witts ability to put the ball to advantage at stoppages will make him the better pure ruckman overall.
Who ends up being the better total value player is totally debatable, which is why I want to keep them both. |
202cm isn't short, even for a modern ruckman (1cm taller than Goldstein).
And winning taps, on the whole, isn't what wins you clearances. Taps to advantage are only a small percentage of total hit outs. It's why Witts is not yet as effective as he can be, he might win hit outs but does not use his body effectively enough to clear a path for the mids At this stage, Grundy has proven more effective in the ruck as well as around the ground. Just because Witts is taller, there's no guarantee he'll ever be better in the ruck. Plenty of tall rucks haven't really kicked on, Warnock for example.
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Well done boys! |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| burton wrote: | A former Rookie-list selection that is not in the first team.
The pick in the 20s is fine, take it and USE it. |
He was a NSW scholarship rookie but was actually drafted straight onto the senior list unless I'm mistaken. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Grundy has proven more effective because he's been playing.
Lets not forget Witts was our preferred ruck in round 1, cut his hand open and missed several weeks while that healed, got infected, and healed again.
In the meantime, Grundy was playing poor to average footy. He came good and started playing really well around the same time Witts became available for selection again.
Several sliding doors moments in round 1
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Grundy played damn well in the 2nd half of the year, and I'm a fan. Don't get me wrong on that aspect.
He blocks well, links up well and plays as an extra midfielder, but his weaknesses are he's not great overhead, he's short for a modern ruckman and he doesn't have much of a leap.
He'll be a clearance beast and a very good player, I just think Witts ability to put the ball to advantage at stoppages will make him the better pure ruckman overall.
Who ends up being the better total value player is totally debatable, which is why I want to keep them both. |
202cm isn't short, even for a modern ruckman (1cm taller than Goldstein).
And winning taps, on the whole, isn't what wins you clearances. Taps to advantage are only a small percentage of total hit outs. It's why Witts is not yet as effective as he can be, he might win hit outs but does not use his body effectively enough to clear a path for the mids At this stage, Grundy has proven more effective in the ruck as well as around the ground. Just because Witts is taller, there's no guarantee he'll ever be better in the ruck. Plenty of tall rucks haven't really kicked on, Warnock for example. |
I think you'll find Wittsy has made great advances in his body positioning through this season. Same with his marking. I think he'll continue to improve going forward. I also think Witts will develop into 1 of the top flight rucks in the league as he matures. Would love to keep him.
If he's going then I'd expect at least a late 1st round pick. If GCS can't match that then I'll settle for picks 24 & 27. |
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King Monkey
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: On a journey to seek the scriptures of enlightenment....
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| stui magpie wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | What did we pay Brisbane for Cam Wood?
No 1 ruck in waiting, we shouldn't sell him cheap. I'd prefer to keep him as I reckon he'll pass Grundy within 2 years. |
Agree with most of what you've said in this thread, but the bold represents a lost plot!! I'll give you a hand to find it if you'd like?  |
hah.
The first job of a ruckman is to give his midfield first use of the ball at stoppages. Witts will win that battle against Grundy all day every day.
Grundy will be better around the ground and get more possessions as a link man, both about equal on marking and goal kicking. |
Would've pretty much agreed with that word for word a few months ago. (Save for the marking. Witts has hands of iron, no touch.)
But Grundy has equalled if not gone past Witts as a tap ruckman since that breakout game against Mumford.
I couldn't quote any stats on the subject, but from observation only I'd suggest he'd be very close to having the highest [hit out:hit out to advantage] percentage in the league from round 16 onwards.
And despite being in the system so long, Witts still isn't instinctively a "see-ball-get-ball" player, he's far to reactive to what others are doing, stemming from not growing up with the game.
AND, despite being 8 foot 16 and 463kgs he has zero physical presence.
If he wants to leave to get an opportunity as 1st ruck, no problem.
I personally wouldn't be surprised to see him playing in the seconds wherever he goes by about the halfway bye. (Depending on that club's options.)
Was definitely worth a go as a NSW project player, anything we get for him is an upgrade on what we paid for him.
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"I am a great sage, equal of heaven.
Grow stick, grow.
Fly cloud, fly.
Oh you are a dee-mon, I love to fiiight." |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Grundy has proven more effective because he's been playing.
Lets not forget Witts was our preferred ruck in round 1, cut his hand open and missed several weeks while that healed, got infected, and healed again.
In the meantime, Grundy was playing poor to average footy. He came good and started playing really well around the same time Witts became available for selection again.
Several sliding doors moments in round 1 |
I could be wrong, but I don't think Witts was ever seen as being ahead of Grundy. He was just more ready to start the year.
Although we were playing Gault ahead of White early so sometimes selectors just make mistakes I guess. We did seem to take too much notice of the preseason comp, which is strange, seeing as it now means less than ever. I chose to put those selections down to physical readiness, because if selectors were turned by decent pre-season form, that's not encouraging, especially when it wasn't even all that good.
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Well done boys! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Grundy has proven more effective because he's been playing.
Lets not forget Witts was our preferred ruck in round 1, cut his hand open and missed several weeks while that healed, got infected, and healed again.
In the meantime, Grundy was playing poor to average footy. He came good and started playing really well around the same time Witts became available for selection again.
Several sliding doors moments in round 1 |
I could be wrong, but I don't think Witts was ever seen as being ahead of Grundy. He was just more ready to start the year.
Although we were playing Gault ahead of White early so sometimes selectors just make mistakes I guess. We did seem to take too much notice of the preseason comp, which is strange, seeing as it now means less than ever. I chose to put those selections down to physical readiness, because if selectors were turned by decent pre-season form, that's not encouraging, especially when it wasn't even all that good. |
The writing was on the wall for poor old wittsy the day Collingwood recruited Grundy. Up until then Witts was being groomed as our number one ruck for the next decade. Then along comes Grundy and almost immediately jumps ahead of the pack. That said, I do recall the NAB cup game against the Cats where Witts' tap work was sensational and he smashed the two supposed great rucks from the Cats. The fact remains, that he's been at Collingwood long enough to secure a spot in our team and he has not managed to do so. Therefore I wish him well at the Suns. |
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burton
Joined: 07 Feb 2011
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| Lazza wrote: | | 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | | burton wrote: | A former Rookie-list selection that is not in the first team.
The pick in the 20s is fine, take it and USE it. |
I believe that most still undervalue the potential for Witts to be a very good player. He needs to be the no.1 ruckman to achieve that though.
From memory he was only rookie listed as being a part of the old NSW scholarship system, or some such similar name, he was able to be reserved and taken that way without using a high draft pick.
The footy gods can be fickle. During the pre-season Witts was the preferred no.1 ruckman which meant that there was no room in the team for Grundy. It was only injury that cost Witts his place in the team and Grundy has made the most of the opportunity that he was given. It's unfortunate that both ruckmen cannot play in the same team. A player in any other position that had dominated in the VFL as Witts had this year would have been given opportunities in the AFL.
Had Witts not been injured early on we may have been talking about what we would be likely to receive for Grundy in a trade.
Price isn't determined just by supply as demand has to be taken into account as well and there may be several clubs competing for Witts. GCS and Brisbane are being talked about. He would be a walk up start at Richmond. Mummy won't be around forever at GWS. We are interested in a GWS player or two. Many options that may be better than pick 24. |
^^^^ Spot on ^^^^^
Totally agree.
IF Witts has to go, I hope they get a pick or player much better than pick 24, otherwise we have been reamed yet again in these draft deals |
We will get reamed. But it will be our own doing as we will probably trade the two picks in the 20s for one in the teens.
This is the same mistake being made over and over again in a game where depth is key.
Pick 20 something is fine, Caleb Daniel - pick 45. Time to stop being so cynical. |
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burton
Joined: 07 Feb 2011
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| jackcass wrote: | | burton wrote: | A former Rookie-list selection that is not in the first team.
The pick in the 20s is fine, take it and USE it. |
He was a NSW scholarship rookie but was actually drafted straight onto the senior list unless I'm mistaken. |
The point remains we got him cheap. |
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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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| burton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | burton wrote: | A former Rookie-list selection that is not in the first team.
The pick in the 20s is fine, take it and USE it. |
He was a NSW scholarship rookie but was actually drafted straight onto the senior list unless I'm mistaken. |
The point remains we got him cheap. |
Why does acquisition price have any relevance to the price obtained on disposal?
Is your point that someone that purchased real estate for $500k should be happy to sell it for the same price even though it was now worth $1m? |
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duke750
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Buderim QLD
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While everyone talks about Witts' potential, and how he is the best tap ruckman in the VFL, he has not had one really decent AFL game in his time at the club.
He lost me in his first AFL game when he won a free kick inside 30m directly in front, his first AFL possession, and gave off a handball! No sense of occasion; no mongrel, slow, doesn't take field marks, ordinary kick.
I would prefer that he stays, but I won't lose sleep if he goes to another club.
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Magpies forever.
First Colligwood game: Western Oval 1960 |
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dalyc
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| woftam wrote: | | dalyc wrote: | So let's turn this on its head, what draft pick would you want for Witts and what would you want for Grundy?
Me, I'd want second round for Witts and low first round for Grundy |
Thank god you aren't negotiating on our behalf. That's all I'll say for now. |
What would you do, Forrest?
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Four legged animals good, two legged animals better |
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