Heath Shaw
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matrix10
Joined: 17 May 2009
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| Tannin wrote: | Was a tremendous player for our club but became a destructive influence with his repeated brain fartz. Fantastic energy and commitment but too much ego and a lack of self-control.
Shaw had stopped being a positive for us, plain and simple.
The good part is that we traded away onlyabout 100 games worth of Heater. How old was he when we traded him? 27? So he had about 100 games left in him before retirement. And we traded in 300 games worth of Taylor Adams, a future Collingwood captain.
Adams has become very, very important to this club. He's not a spectacular player like Heater, he's a very hard worker, tough as nails, and RELIABLE. When we are getting smashed, Adams doesn't hang his head or go round biffing blokes or pointing fingers and screaming abuse at his teammates. Adams just gets the pill, over and over and over. He leads by example. And when Adams is in the team, we very rarely do get smashed. We are a better team with his heart and ball-getting ability at our core.
Adams is very like Blair in some ways, but with one big difference. He tackles like a maniac, chases, goes in for the hard ball at the bottom of the pack, trains the house down, generally does the hard things coaches love. But there is one difference and it's a key one. Adams gets a lot of the ball. Every week. He's 23 and a couple of years off his prime yet, but already one of our three or four most important players. By the time he's 25 and at his very best, Heater will have retired.
Summary: we swapped a good old player with problems for a good young player without those problems. In one word, we got a fantastic bargain.
Curiously, however,. GWS would be happy with the deal too. They were swimming in talented youngsters and could spare Adams, but they desperately needed experience. Heater has done brilliantly for GWS, made them a better team, and good on him. Very pleased to see him make such a success of his second career, and I hope he gets a premiership out of it somewhere along the line.
And I will never, ever, ever forget his gift to us of the 2010 premiership. That moment when he made the Smother of the Century, that was the turning point. From that moment on, St Vomit were never going to catch us.
(Dennis Cometti, interviewed after his retirement was announced last week, was asked, out of all the grand finals he has called, was there one moment that stands out in his memory above all others? Yes, Dennis said: Heath Shaw's smother in the Grand Final Replay. That's pretty fair praise from a man of his vast experience.)
Go well Heater. And in a couple of years time when you retire, you can enjoy watching Taylor Adams lead us to premiership glory. |
hear hear!'
And KM- as you love 'facts' to back up your arguments
Here's some for you to 'prove' Heath had a pretty ordinary game (by his standards) against GWS
vs Bulldogs vs 2016 average
disposals 15 24
kicks 15 21
handballs 0 3
disposal
efficiency 60 74
contested 4 6
uncontested 11 15
marks 5 8
score
involvements 3 3
clangers 5 4
R 50s 8 8
I50 0 2
DT 73 100
Pretty solid case to support the FACT he had an ordinary game by his standards.
But please- find some way to avoid acknowledging this and shift the blame to Buckley.
PS- perhaps you should give Trumps campaign manager a call- I reckon you'd fit in a treat |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| matrix10 wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | Was a tremendous player for our club but became a destructive influence with his repeated brain fartz. Fantastic energy and commitment but too much ego and a lack of self-control.
Shaw had stopped being a positive for us, plain and simple.
The good part is that we traded away onlyabout 100 games worth of Heater. How old was he when we traded him? 27? So he had about 100 games left in him before retirement. And we traded in 300 games worth of Taylor Adams, a future Collingwood captain.
Adams has become very, very important to this club. He's not a spectacular player like Heater, he's a very hard worker, tough as nails, and RELIABLE. When we are getting smashed, Adams doesn't hang his head or go round biffing blokes or pointing fingers and screaming abuse at his teammates. Adams just gets the pill, over and over and over. He leads by example. And when Adams is in the team, we very rarely do get smashed. We are a better team with his heart and ball-getting ability at our core.
Adams is very like Blair in some ways, but with one big difference. He tackles like a maniac, chases, goes in for the hard ball at the bottom of the pack, trains the house down, generally does the hard things coaches love. But there is one difference and it's a key one. Adams gets a lot of the ball. Every week. He's 23 and a couple of years off his prime yet, but already one of our three or four most important players. By the time he's 25 and at his very best, Heater will have retired.
Summary: we swapped a good old player with problems for a good young player without those problems. In one word, we got a fantastic bargain.
Curiously, however,. GWS would be happy with the deal too. They were swimming in talented youngsters and could spare Adams, but they desperately needed experience. Heater has done brilliantly for GWS, made them a better team, and good on him. Very pleased to see him make such a success of his second career, and I hope he gets a premiership out of it somewhere along the line.
And I will never, ever, ever forget his gift to us of the 2010 premiership. That moment when he made the Smother of the Century, that was the turning point. From that moment on, St Vomit were never going to catch us.
(Dennis Cometti, interviewed after his retirement was announced last week, was asked, out of all the grand finals he has called, was there one moment that stands out in his memory above all others? Yes, Dennis said: Heath Shaw's smother in the Grand Final Replay. That's pretty fair praise from a man of his vast experience.)
Go well Heater. And in a couple of years time when you retire, you can enjoy watching Taylor Adams lead us to premiership glory. |
hear hear!'
And KM- as you love 'facts' to back up your arguments
Here's some for you to 'prove' Heath had a pretty ordinary game (by his standards) against GWS
vs Bulldogs vs 2016 average
disposals 15 24
kicks 15 21
handballs 0 3
disposal
efficiency 60 74
contested 4 6
uncontested 11 15
marks 5 8
score
involvements 3 3
clangers 5 4
R 50s 8 8
I50 0 2
DT 73 100
Pretty solid case to support the FACT he had an ordinary game by his standards.
But please- find some way to avoid acknowledging this and shift the blame to Buckley.
PS- perhaps you should give Trumps campaign manager a call- I reckon you'd fit in a treat |
Again I must reiterate that my position on Heath Shaw's preliminary final game has nothing to do with my hatred of Buckley as a coach. I would prefer Heath was still in black and white but he ain't. I think the trade was fair for both sides. It is what it is.
I saw people on this thread unjustly having a crack at Shaw (a premiership player and member of a great Collingwood family). I thought, having actually been at the game and considering this bullshit "his man kicked 4 goals on him" mantra thrown about on hear, that I'd look at the game objectively and call it for what it was.
Did you attend the preliminary final at Spotless Stadium Matrix10? Did you see what Shaw did to lead and arrange players behind the ball on channel 7's coverage? I doubt it very much. I was at the game. I saw it all in context.
If you think it's all about stats you are clueless. It was the most pressure filled game of the year. Dogs made sure no one got space. I've said it wasn't his greatest game, but it was still a high quality game considering the role he was required to play (i.e. Deep on Dickson in the goal square).
It was 68 to 45 inside 50's in favour of the dogs. GWS got beaten in contested footy, uncontested footy, smashed at tackles inside fwd 50 (14 to 3) and clearances 53 to 38. How the **** is that Shaw's fault?
Yet you wanna look at Shaw's individual "stats" and label his game ordinary? The backline was getting pounded. If not for Davis and Shaw it would have been a ten goal loss. The GWS midfield did not do their job. Nor do their fwd line. Yet when you look at the tape they still should have won the game. And clearly Williams, Hayne and Wilson didn't light up the world. I'd suggest Wilson was moved on to Dickson in the fourth to free Shaw up to be more creative up field because those guys had failed to perform.
If you wanna pick out Shaw's stats go have a look at whether anyone in the GWS got their season average that day? I don't think so. Had Ward not been KO'd GWS more than likely win a thriller and go on to win the flag. Everyone would look back at the prelim vs dogs like pies in 07 vs the cats. Pies took it too em and the Cats had a "rough" day. That's how history views it (rightly or wrongly).
Shaw, considering the defensive style he was forced to play and the smashing GWS got in the midfield, the avalache of inside 50's and lack of clean ball he had (due to the coach wanting to let Williams, Hayne and Wilson off the chain up field), I'd say Shaw was great. Very much like a Maxwell performance in the 2010 GF draw.
If you can't understand Shaw's role was not to be all out attacking as GWS had other younger players to run off half back I suggest you go back and watch the game again. Jeremy Cameron got like two touches and you're fixated on Shaw not getting his "average" stats? There is a reason for that and it's dogs midfield dominating the game...
I will admit I was wrong about the Dogs though. I did think they'd fall over in the GF. Good luck to them, but I'm pretty sure swans will look at the tape and go, much like GWS, "WTF? We threw our chances away". |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Great player at times with us, helped us win a flag, the mighty smother, but at times a loose cannon, an accident waiting too happen. Hes gone now, so maybe we should move on, he has.
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Great player at times with us, helped us win a flag, the mighty smother, but at times a loose cannon, an accident waiting too happen. Hes gone now, so maybe we should move on, he has. |
I understand where your coming from, and agree to an extent. But if people gonna start a thread and take uneducated and completely stupid pot shots at a former premiership player (who's family happens to be Collingwood royalty) then **** them.
I will defend Shaw just as I would Cloke, Thomas, Starcevich, Monkhurst or Russell etc that left the club after a flag and makes a solid contribution at another club. By all means kick em if they've left the club on their own accord and had a shocker. But we all know Shaw left (and cracked the shits) because we were coached by a champion and then it got handed over to the dud we have now.
And then there is the fact Shaw was actually one of the better players for GWS in the prelimary final... but let's not let truth get in the way |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | | uncanny wrote: | | I was interested to hear Tory Dickson on radio on Sunday afternoon talking about their plans to rattle Heater. Both in the tactics Tory and his team mates employed and by the lip and niggle guys like Libba gave him. These clearly worked as evidenced by the spray we've been debating. It's debatable about the effect this would have on the orange boys but sure as heck would have encouraged the dogs big time to see him going off like that. |
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Let's relive it from this perspective.
1. Dickson kicks his first goal. Bit of a ruckus afterward. Shaw refuses to back down. Fires up. Who kicked the next goals? That's right GWS. So Shaw inspired the next 2 goals. Well played dogs going at Shaw just got GWS to get their ass into gear.
2. Two minutes to go in 2nd qtr. Tomlinson drops a over head mark which he should have taken. Two ball ups in a row. Then Whitfield allows no.14 to kick an easy stoppage goal. Shaw goes ape shit. "That $£$%^%%$ shit" he says. Who kicks he next goal after half time? GWS! Again Shaw's spray has an impact.
3. Dickson out marks Shaw and goals. A bit of a ruckus. Shaw says to Davis "that's the last one alright". Who kicks the next 3 goals? GWS of course.
The mid field was where that game was won. On top of that, Tomilson, Hayne, Wilson, Williams and Patful all cost GWS goals. Wilson cost multiple goals.
However, there is clear evidence that after every Shaw spray or scrap with the opposition GWS responded positively. It inspired them. They always kicked the next goal after a Shaw spat. Any one who thinks it was detrimental to the GWS is a $£$%^%%$ moron. On top of that, have a look at the reaction to his 55 meter goal. They all love it and embrace him. They love the guy.
Shaw had no control over what the midfield do. If the dogs seriously think scrapping with Shaw helped win them the game they are $£$%^%%$ idiots. As I've just demonstrated, every time Shaw got pissed off the GWS played better and scored goals. If that ain't great leadership I don't know what is. The dogs know it was won on the back of GWS mistakes (choking) and the dogs dominant mid field.
They know they got lucky GWS threw it away |
Just find these comments a little hypocritical from someone who regularly sledges Buckley for his losses, but praises Heath Shaw for a loss that he was partially responsible for. |
As I've said in othe posts. The fact Davis and Shaw held back the flood was amazing. Shaw will make a better coach than Buckley when he retires. He sees the game better than most. Backmen always do.
I am disparaging of Bucks for completely different reasons. He can't motivate a playing group to run threw brick walls (as Johnson mentioned in the final draw). Unlike Bucks, Shaw just has to get grumpy down back and the GWS players respond with goals. If anything, Shaw should be criticised for not cracking the shits in the 4th and getting GWS on a run of goals like he did in the 1st and 3rd qtr.
Don't get me started on Bucks' strategy/game plan/structure in rounds 1 to 6. It was like nothing seen before by any AFL coach. It was an abomination and an immediate sackable offence. It cost us finals. And as the dogs (with the week off) it showed you could have won from 7th, or maybe even 8th.
Last edited by Krakouer Magic on Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | | uncanny wrote: | | I was interested to hear Tory Dickson on radio on Sunday afternoon talking about their plans to rattle Heater. Both in the tactics Tory and his team mates employed and by the lip and niggle guys like Libba gave him. These clearly worked as evidenced by the spray we've been debating. It's debatable about the effect this would have on the orange boys but sure as heck would have encouraged the dogs big time to see him going off like that. |
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Let's relive it from this perspective.
1. Dickson kicks his first goal. Bit of a ruckus afterward. Shaw refuses to back down. Fires up. Who kicked the next goals? That's right GWS. So Shaw inspired the next 2 goals. Well played dogs going at Shaw just got GWS to get their ass into gear.
2. Two minutes to go in 2nd qtr. Tomlinson drops a over head mark which he should have taken. Two ball ups in a row. Then Whitfield allows no.14 to kick an easy stoppage goal. Shaw goes ape shit. "That $£$%^%%$ shit" he says. Who kicks he next goal after half time? GWS! Again Shaw's spray has an impact.
3. Dickson out marks Shaw and goals. A bit of a ruckus. Shaw says to Davis "that's the last one alright". Who kicks the next 3 goals? GWS of course.
The mid field was where that game was won. On top of that, Tomilson, Hayne, Wilson, Williams and Patful all cost GWS goals. Wilson cost multiple goals.
However, there is clear evidence that after every Shaw spray or scrap with the opposition GWS responded positively. It inspired them. They always kicked the next goal after a Shaw spat. Any one who thinks it was detrimental to the GWS is a $£$%^%%$ moron. On top of that, have a look at the reaction to his 55 meter goal. They all love it and embrace him. They love the guy.
Shaw had no control over what the midfield do. If the dogs seriously think scrapping with Shaw helped win them the game they are $£$%^%%$ idiots. As I've just demonstrated, every time Shaw got pissed off the GWS played better and scored goals. If that ain't great leadership I don't know what is. The dogs know it was won on the back of GWS mistakes (choking) and the dogs dominant mid field.
They know they got lucky GWS threw it away |
Just find these comments a little hypocritical from someone who regularly sledges Buckley for his losses, but praises Heath Shaw for a loss that he was partially responsible for. |
As I've said in othe posts. The fact Davis and Shaw held back the flood was amazing. Shaw will make a better coach than Buckley when he retires. He sees the game better than most. Backmen always do.
I am disparaging of Bucks for completely different reasons. He can't motivate a playing group to run threw brick walls (as Johnson mentioned in the final draw). Unlike Bucks, Shaw just has to get grumpy down back and the GWS players respond with goals. If anything, Shaw should be criticised for not cracking the shits in the 4th and getting GWS on a run of goals like he did in the 1st and 3rd qtr.
Don't get me started on Bucks' strategy/game plan/structure in rounds 1 to 6. It was like nothing seen before by any AFL coach. It was an abomination and an immediate sackable offence. It cost us finals. And as the dogs (with the week off) it showed you could have won from 7th, or maybe even 8th. |
In hindsight, it is pretty damning. I personally think he should have been sacked right after that elimination final vs Port (ironically Shaw's last game for the club...), he showed that night he can't coach and he'll never be a true leader of men.
As a side note, said this a few days after on this very site and have I been proved wrong yet... three very long years later - lmao some people here...  |
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