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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Good question. The Doggies will end up with a 1st round pick 11-18, 2nd 29-36, before all the compo picks and other crap are factored in. There 1st is too high but if their 2nd slips into the mid 30's I think it's too low so you'd need to look at an exchange of picks to balance it. Be nice to look after Clokey but ultimately it has to be about what is best for Collingwood and we can always keep him. |
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Bucks2014
Joined: 15 Feb 2014
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| kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | You don't think Elliott, Fasolo and White can help Moore enough? I'm not being smart, it's a serious question. |
No offence taken, IMO Elliot is unknown due to his condition, Fas seems to have injury concerns as well. Jesse has been good this year but I think he needs to have a reason to play well. In the past Jesse has more pardon the pun been gifted games due to no one good enough to take his spot.
If we don't replace Clokey, I worry for Jesse's game.
I hope Elliot can come back and play at the level he was.
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"Still waiting for your call Caroline ... not a quote in sight. Don't ever presume to speak on Collingwood's behalf," |
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kymbo5@yahoo.com.au
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
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It's a big if in many ways but if Lachie Keeffe could hold down a position in the back half, Reid or Howe could then move forward? Keeffe looked alright before his incident.
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kymbo |
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What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| think positive wrote: | | kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | You don't think Elliott, Fasolo and White can help Moore enough? I'm not being smart, it's a serious question. |
No we need a tall, and Jessie is a really nice guy/tryer, but he's near the end |
Keep White on a 3 month contract, so he's always playing for his career. |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | It's a big if in many ways but if Lachie Keeffe could hold down a position in the back half, Reid or Howe could then move forward? Keeffe looked alright before his incident. |
Doesn't Keeffe have to come off the rookie list first? |
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Bucks2014
Joined: 15 Feb 2014
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| kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | It's a big if in many ways but if Lachie Keeffe could hold down a position in the back half, Reid or Howe could then move forward? Keeffe looked alright before his incident. |
Yes this could happen, I'm not sure about Howe forward but I'm a wrap for Reid as this is what he was recruited for to be a KF and has shown in the past he is a weapon. It's also going to depend on Browny, seems to be a bit of a whipping boy, I hope we don't lose him.
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"Still waiting for your call Caroline ... not a quote in sight. Don't ever presume to speak on Collingwood's behalf," |
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Bucks2014
Joined: 15 Feb 2014
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | You don't think Elliott, Fasolo and White can help Moore enough? I'm not being smart, it's a serious question. |
No we need a tall, and Jessie is a really nice guy/tryer, but he's near the end |
Keep White on a 3 month contract, so he's always playing for his career. |
Like it.
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"Still waiting for your call Caroline ... not a quote in sight. Don't ever presume to speak on Collingwood's behalf," |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Bucks2014 wrote: | | kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | It's a big if in many ways but if Lachie Keeffe could hold down a position in the back half, Reid or Howe could then move forward? Keeffe looked alright before his incident. |
Yes this could happen, I'm not sure about Howe forward but I'm a wrap for Reid as this is what he was recruited for to be a KF and has shown in the past he is a weapon. It's also going to depend on Browny, seems to be a bit of a whipping boy, I hope we don't lose him. |
I agree but I would not be surprised if it was going forward that caused his injury crisis. Forwards have to run forward and sharply turn back a lot, whereas backmen tend to be a bit more straight forward. it was after he went forward that Reid started to have his quad issues.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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melliot
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Location: Bendigo
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| Tannin wrote: | | Geek wrote: | | melliot wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | melliot wrote: | Can someone answer my earlier question.
Can we release Cloke from his contract and get a better Draft pick through FA compensation? |
Not that I'm aware. Contract is lodged with the AFL and remains binding unless superseded. |
Didnt the saints/north do that with DalSanto? |
You don't get compensation for delisted free agents. "Renegotiating the contract" is essentially delisting so no, we wouldn't get compensation.
Having said that, we would do better to do a trade in good faith anyway. There are a couple of clubs that are shit to deal with but the rest should be ok.
Sad to se the big lug go but we really should have done it 2 years ago when 2m Peter was available. We could have gotten 2 first rounders for him then including a top 5 pick for an eventual draft haul of JDG, Moore, Wright and another first rounder. With Greenwood, Maynard and Crisp coming in that year that would have made for 1/3 of a best 22 for the loss of Beams and Cloke, neither of whom have set the world alight since.
And yes, I said we should have done it back then too.
I'm all up for sentimentality in footy And I appreciate the effort that Cloke put in to his footy. He would have had to have been more committed to his footy than I have been to anything in my life other than my kid and I totally respect that.
But sentimentality does not win you flags. Whenever possible, we need to look at moving on those in decline for those on the rise. It's ruthless and maybe appears a little cold hearted at times but that's AFL footy now. All the way across the league, players are treating footy as "just a business" and the clubs that don't do likewise will be at a loss.
On Cloke's sentimental value due to the flag, well he spent a lot of his political capital with us AFAIC when he and his dad held us over a barrel with his last contract. The club's debt to him was paid then. 800k for 4 years with a 5th on performance.... for a guy who was great at getting it but was a turnover merchant. Every behind, every out on the full, every shot across the face that would get killed by the defence was a turnover. 800kpa should pay for more than that. Face it.... Cloke is NQR. Great mark. One of the best in history. Good tank. OK wheels for a person with his size. Great tackler when he puts in the effort. Durable as all hell, suggesting a great example to the younger players of proper preparation and hard yards on the track. Kicks like he's got polio though. 800k for an NQR? The club has repaid its debt to him.
Now he's trying to do a Malthouse on the part of the contract that he doesn't like. Fair enough. That's the done thing these days it seems and in my view, he's got the right to shop around and maybe get him and his dad some more coin. We get the chance maybe to recycle some value out of his list position. His fans don't have to watch him decline even further every week over the next couple of years, tut-tutting about how sad it is to see a one-time champion struggling through the end of his career. Win-win-win.
He wasn't treated badly this year. He was given longer than anyone should have been to find form in the firsts. He did ok when he got back in on a couple of occasions, suggesting that he has some good footy left in him. For a team ready to challenge, he could be the final piece of the puzzle. If we can get something in the first or early second round, we would be stupid not to take it. |
Great post. Sums it up perfectly. Only one thing to disagree with: he's not worth a first rounder. Not even close at his age and with his steadily declining form over the last several years. Late second rounder, early third rounder is about right. If we fluke it for better than that, great!
The main thing is to get him out of our salary cap space so that we have money to spare for players with a future, the likes of Treloar, Moore, Grundy, Adams, Crisp, and Aish. When their contracts fall due, we need extra coin on hand so that we can pay them what they are worth. Remember, if these kids are half as good as we think they are and come on as we all hope, they will be pushing A Grade status by 2018 or 2019 and will be entitled to be paid accordingly.
We also need cash for a quality key defender. We haven't got one yet, but whether we recruit one ready-made or discover that someone like Marsh or Frost or Keeffe has gone up to a new level and blossomed into a genuine Reid replacement, we will have to pay them.
Cheers Travis. Loved your work for the club, will never forget your premiership. I'll watch your career with Footscray or Hawthorn or Freo or whoever with interest and wish you the very best. When you hang your boots up in two or three years time, drop in to the club, you'll be more than welcome.
Hell, maybe we could offer you a job as a specialist coach. No current AFL player knows more than you do about goal missing. You could be like the ex-con who goes around the schools teaching kids how not to do what you did. |
Just because the contract is expired, doesn't make the player delisted. Nathan Brown is out of Contract, but still on our list. He can sign with us again, or take a FA offer. The AFL do their calculation and we get a FA compo pick.
I'm sure Nick DalSanto's contract was ended 1 year early with the saints so he could leave as a FA, which gave a better pick than Norf could with a trade.
We may be better off have Cloke go as a FA for a better compo pick than what we would get in a trade. Both Cloke and CFC would need to mutually agree to end their contract. And take a FA offer. This is different to a delisting. |
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MagpieBat
Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Location: Brooding in a cave... somewhere... maybe...
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | kymbo5@yahoo.com.au wrote: | | It's a big if in many ways but if Lachie Keeffe could hold down a position in the back half, Reid or Howe could then move forward? Keeffe looked alright before his incident. |
Doesn't Keeffe have to come off the rookie list first? |
Not really. Can be elevated for a Long Term Injury or if there is a spare spot on the list.
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I am vengeance. I am the night. I am MagpieBat. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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God help the team that does take him, big Daddy Demir will run the show, contract, where the fruit of his loins will play and for how much. Demir will screw the club, just as he tried to screw us for years.
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Geek
geek
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Jacana
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| Tannin wrote: | Great post. Sums it up perfectly. Only one thing to disagree with: he's not worth a first rounder. Not even close at his age and with his steadily declining form over the last several years. Late second rounder, early third rounder is about right. If we fluke it for better than that, great!
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Thanks Tannin.
Yeah to any old club, I agree that he is worth only a late 2nd/ early 3rd rounder but to the right club, I think we could do a fair bit better. If we look like only getting a 3rd rounder or yet another flanker/wannabe mid like Jong, then for all I said earlier, I'd rather keep Cloke at the Pies. In my view, if Cloke was coming to us from another club, then I'd be happy to pay pick 19 - 25 for him. He does have some good footy left and it's true - he would draw heat from Moore while the kid grows into his role as our spearhead. We are one of the clubs that would benefit from having him here. Problem is that the Dogs look like his destination and they don't have an early 2nd round pick.
Don't forget that we also look like losing Nate and maybe Witts will head off too. We have an abundance of flankers that might find a bit of currency. With the O'Meara deal no doubt causing some ripples in the trade market along with Prestia and any other high profile defections between here and October there could be a chance to really improve our draft position better than you hope, provided we deal shrewdly |
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