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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Mugwump wrote: | | have in common the idea that the concept of marriage is primarily a contract between a man and a woman in which children should be raised |
Oh dear, what a ridiculous nonsense. Try reading some history. Pay particular attention to the marriage customs of the aristocracy. Or, if you prefer, focus on the marriage customs of the proletariat, which largely arose out of a pressing need to avoid stigma, excommunication, and often more severe punishments just for doing what comes naturally.
(I am aware that you are apparently summarising David's view there, which hopefully is not the same as your own.)
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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The only reason we got married was because the very RC Irish Republic did not recognise defacto relationships so getting married made travelling there etc easier!
And some 20 years later they have legalised SSM and we are still dithering about! 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| KenH wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | KenH wrote: | | Pa Marmo, I hope you are not serious? I haven't read anything from you for a long time but if that post was serious I hope to never read anything from you again! |
Of course he was serious.
You can be sure he doesn't support abortion and euthanasia either or believe in climate change.
No doubt a Trump supporter also.  |
So a 60 year old white male? |
Not quite, went to his 50th a couple of months back, he's still a youngster!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | KenH wrote: | | Pa Marmo, I hope you are not serious? I haven't read anything from you for a long time but if that post was serious I hope to never read anything from you again! |
Of course he was serious.
You can be sure he doesn't support abortion and euthanasia either or believe in climate change.
No doubt a Trump supporter also. |
I certainly do not support abortion, its the murder of the most defenceless of all, the unborn child in the womb.
As for euthanasia, if you want to kill yourself, then have at it, its not real hard, there are heaps of easy ways. I just don't want it state sanctioned as it will become a slippery slope. First it will be voluntary, then it will be, hey grandads old and sick and costs too much to care for, off he goes. Its already happened in Denmark. Then it will be, hey, your baby has downs syndrome or some other congenital defect and they will force your hand.
Of course I believe in climate change, its called the weather, it changes all the time. I just don't swallow the whole seas are going to rise, which has never yet happened, world is going to cook bunkum.
Now, as for Trump, although I wouldn't call myself a Trump supporter, I am so glad they got him over that heinous lying reprobate Clinton.
But hey swoop, you keep making ridiculous assumptions about someone you never met, you fit right in with those on here who can't have a debate, they have to resort to name calling, labelling and attacks, like I said, left wing lunacy. |
Yeah like that's going to ever happen or is what is being proposed.
Just more lies from the loony Christian political lobby we've come to expect.
You're probably one of those people who stand outside clinics harassing women aren't you?
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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No he really isnt, and he doesn't push his opinion on anyone. Yes he will state his side, but if you disagree he won't push it or try and change your mind.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| swoop42 wrote: |
You're probably one of those people who stand outside clinics harassing women aren't you? |
Wrong again lefty, never been to murder house, and have no plans to.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: |
Your post makes it sound as if marriage is and has historically been an absolutely concrete social idea that is only now about to be fundamentally altered. That's simply false I can't put it any other way. I have to admit I'm surprised that you still look so darkly on an idea that many conservatives in the West have long since come to accept. |
I'm surprised by your point here, as it suggests to me the opposite of what it suggests to you. All of the permutations you describe, several of which are clearly undesirable, have in common the idea that the concept of marriage is primarily a contract between a man and a woman in which children should be raised. This has very nearly collapsed since the introduction of easy divorce by "progressives", who thereby ushered in the world of multiple stepfathers and child vulnerability which followed. So it may be that there is little of value left to defend in the long-sanctioned normative meaning of marriage ; but i do not see why gay people could not have their union denoted by a diferent word, since it is such a breach with meaning.
In any event, this is not a vital issue, in my mind. The really socially-important battle (durability of heterosexual marriage) was lost long ago, and thus it does not much matter what we call a marriage as a result. I just wanted to defend Pa Marmo against what seemed to me reflex outrage, as he had a debatable point.
On the last point, i think you are confusing the "conservatives" in modern conservative parties with Conservatism as espoused by its philosophers (Hobbes, Burke, Scruton et al). Most modern conservative parties are essentially libertarians who outsource moral questions to the mass market, with little attachment to forms of life which are tested and justified by their historic proof and moderation. |
I'm not just talking about politicians here. There have been many conservatives in recent years who've pointed out that extending the marriage franchise to same-sex couples is a victory for conservatism.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418515/equal-chance-love-why-we-should-recognize-same-sex-marriage-jason-lee-steorts
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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KenH 
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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| think positive wrote: | | KenH wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | KenH wrote: | | Pa Marmo, I hope you are not serious? I haven't read anything from you for a long time but if that post was serious I hope to never read anything from you again! |
Of course he was serious.
You can be sure he doesn't support abortion and euthanasia either or believe in climate change.
No doubt a Trump supporter also. |
So a 60 year old white male? |
Not quite, went to his 50th a couple of months back, he's still a youngster! |
Oops younger than me then! We can all have our own opinions but I really don't understand how anyone would want to stop a certain group of people having the same rights as others. I really couldn't be friends with people against this. I don't believe that they are concerned about where it could end that is bullshit, they simply don't like gay people and obviously think less of them! By the way I am a heterosexual white male heading towards 60!
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Cheers big ears |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Tannin wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | have in common the idea that the concept of marriage is primarily a contract between a man and a woman in which children should be raised |
Oh dear, what a ridiculous nonsense. Try reading some history. Pay particular attention to the marriage customs of the aristocracy. Or, if you prefer, focus on the marriage customs of the proletariat, which largely arose out of a pressing need to avoid stigma, excommunication, and often more severe punishments just for doing what comes naturally.
(I am aware that you are apparently summarising David's view there, which hopefully is not the same as your own.) |
Actually the marriage customs of the proletariat were generally vigorously defended by women because women knew damn well that, in an age before contraception and widespread female employment, marriage provided by far the best hope for security for themselves and their offspring. it is why, as Philip Larkin said, sex in the pre-pill days was a "sort of bargaining/ a wrangle for the ring". In those days, too, women were typically highly conservative, as they knew best the costs of social chaos and male power unleashed from responsibility. Some history, indeed !
The aristocracy's practice had dynastic matters mixed up in it of course - but the aristocracy were hardly representative of common meaning. One night as well discuss what marriage meant to anarchists.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| KenH wrote: |
Oops younger than me then! We can all have our own opinions but I really don't understand how anyone would want to stop a certain group of people having the same rights as others. I really couldn't be friends with people against this. I don't believe that they are concerned about where it could end that is bullshit, they simply don't like gay people and obviously think less of them! By the way I am a heterosexual white male heading towards 60! |
Ken, firstly, Im not asking to be your friend, Im only putting forward my opinion or point of view, only without the nasty streak many on here seem to have. As for your comment about not liking gay people, just like swoop, you are terribly ill informed. I go for dinner or breaky with a gay couple (males) who are well aware that I disagree with their lifestyle, but also know I care for them, and treat them like any of the others in our little gatherings. Shock and horror, sometimes I even sit next to them  . I don't think less of anyone, and I certainly don't think Im any better than anyone else. My own eldest daughter once lived a gay lifestyle before marrying a young man and having 4 wonderful children. I didn't ostracise her, I didn't disown her, I told her I loved her, but disagreed with her lifestyle. On here the christian gets judged very harshly, but I'm tipping the most of you have never met a proper biblical christian, because if you did you would see, we are nothing like you accused us of being.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| KenH wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | KenH wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | KenH wrote: | | Pa Marmo, I hope you are not serious? I haven't read anything from you for a long time but if that post was serious I hope to never read anything from you again! |
Of course he was serious.
You can be sure he doesn't support abortion and euthanasia either or believe in climate change.
No doubt a Trump supporter also. |
So a 60 year old white male? |
Not quite, went to his 50th a couple of months back, he's still a youngster! |
Oops younger than me then! We can all have our own opinions but I really don't understand how anyone would want to stop a certain group of people having the same rights as others. I really couldn't be friends with people against this. I don't believe that they are concerned about where it could end that is bullshit, they simply don't like gay people and obviously think less of them! By the way I am a heterosexual white male heading towards 60! |
Whoa really? So do you agree with all your friends on everything? I have some pretty hard fast opinions on things myself, but dont judge or drop other people for theirs. Gees youd have no friends!! i really dont get that! On this subject particularly, there is plenty of people around 60 with that view for what ever reason.
He really is big enough to stick up for himself, but hey, thats never stopped me! Pa and his wife are our closest friends, (oops i actually typed closet by mistake first, quite funny in the context!!) have been for over 25 years. No, i dont agree with him at all on this subject, but dont feel the need to castrate him for it, and no, he doesnt hate gay people, there are gay people in our group of friends and no, he doesnt think less of them. More that they have lost their way. Its just his opinion, and yes, its probably based on his religious beliefs.
As for the abortion comments, i actually get where he is coming from, but no, i dont totally agree with him either. i am not against abortion, but dont like to see it used as a contraception method either.
have to say these things really dont come up in everyday conversation! Although Trump does, but thats probably my husbands fault! Dont ask me why, im never sure if my hubby is actually on Trumps side or taking the piss! By the way I get the Trump thing too - the American public were simply fed up with crooked politicians only out for themselves, lying, cheating, etc etc. Is he a better choice or just the wake up call? I met a personal friend of Trumps on a cruise (yes he could prove it!) and his private persona is apparently far different,(his mate didnt vote for him by the way!!).
We are both passionate Collingwood people, and funnily enough, any disagreements of late are about footy and the direction of the club! but thats a different forum!
One thing i will say, is you can have a very passionate very loud discussion with Pa about whatever, and walk away shaking hands. Hes fast, he has answers for everything, but he will fight for you like nobodies business. Cheers.
edit, he beat me to it!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: |
Your post makes it sound as if marriage is and has historically been an absolutely concrete social idea that is only now about to be fundamentally altered. That's simply false I can't put it any other way. I have to admit I'm surprised that you still look so darkly on an idea that many conservatives in the West have long since come to accept. |
I'm surprised by your point here, as it suggests to me the opposite of what it suggests to you. All of the permutations you describe, several of which are clearly undesirable, have in common the idea that the concept of marriage is primarily a contract between a man and a woman in which children should be raised. This has very nearly collapsed since the introduction of easy divorce by "progressives", who thereby ushered in the world of multiple stepfathers and child vulnerability which followed. So it may be that there is little of value left to defend in the long-sanctioned normative meaning of marriage ; but i do not see why gay people could not have their union denoted by a diferent word, since it is such a breach with meaning.
In any event, this is not a vital issue, in my mind. The really socially-important battle (durability of heterosexual marriage) was lost long ago, and thus it does not much matter what we call a marriage as a result. I just wanted to defend Pa Marmo against what seemed to me reflex outrage, as he had a debatable point.
On the last point, i think you are confusing the "conservatives" in modern conservative parties with Conservatism as espoused by its philosophers (Hobbes, Burke, Scruton et al). Most modern conservative parties are essentially libertarians who outsource moral questions to the mass market, with little attachment to forms of life which are tested and justified by their historic proof and moderation. |
I'm not just talking about politicians here. There have been many conservatives in recent years who've pointed out that extending the marriage franchise to same-sex couples is a victory for conservatism.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418515/equal-chance-love-why-we-should-recognize-same-sex-marriage-jason-lee-steorts |
Sure, some do, many don't -im not sure why you think the opinions of one commentator should represent a groundswell. He makes some decent arguments with which I agree. I have no problem with legal equality for gay commitments, and I applaud them when they are sincere. I just think it violates the concept of marriage and further damages an already trashed institution which used to protect the most vulnerable.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Mugwump wrote: | | which used to protect the most vulnerable. |
 What do you mean by that Mug?
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I respect Christians and respect their right to see the world through their own eyes which is all any of us can ever do but I wish that those in the anti lobby would accept that marriage as a legal phenomenon is a secular and not a religious institution. Their church can and should have the right to consecrate marriage as it sees fit, but as Jesus said, "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's". The flipside of religious freedom is that secular society, too, be free from religious doctrine.
Gay people don't want to bother you or tell you how to live your life; why try to control how they live theirs?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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KenH
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | | KenH wrote: |
Oops younger than me then! We can all have our own opinions but I really don't understand how anyone would want to stop a certain group of people having the same rights as others. I really couldn't be friends with people against this. I don't believe that they are concerned about where it could end that is bullshit, they simply don't like gay people and obviously think less of them! By the way I am a heterosexual white male heading towards 60! |
Ken, firstly, Im not asking to be your friend, Im only putting forward my opinion or point of view, only without the nasty streak many on here seem to have. As for your comment about not liking gay people, just like swoop, you are terribly ill informed. I go for dinner or breaky with a gay couple (males) who are well aware that I disagree with their lifestyle, but also know I care for them, and treat them like any of the others in our little gatherings. Shock and horror, sometimes I even sit next to them . I don't think less of anyone, and I certainly don't think Im any better than anyone else. My own eldest daughter once lived a gay lifestyle before marrying a young man and having 4 wonderful children. I didn't ostracise her, I didn't disown her, I told her I loved her, but disagreed with her lifestyle. On here the christian gets judged very harshly, but I'm tipping the most of you have never met a proper biblical christian, because if you did you would see, we are nothing like you accused us of being. |
Hi Pa Marmo, I do have some very christian friends and like you don't understand the gay lifestyle, but they will not deny them the same rights as they have and are hoping that they will soon be able to marry! I find it very hard to say that you can treat them the same as others but still deny them the same rights that you and I have. It saddens me that some seemingly nice and caring people still think that they have the right to stop others from getting married.
TP my friends and I disagree on many things and have a few arguments, but I will not abide to discrimination against fellow humans about who they love and want to marry!
I have yet to hear a good argument into why this should not allow to happen, it doesn't effect anyone!
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Cheers big ears |
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